Is Green Woods Charter a public school?

[billy ross]

I think the problem is that people were told that charters were the solution to our "failed broken schools". Everyone knows that the failed broken schools are those in the poorest, inner city areas. If charters can't fix these problems, then they are not the solution. We should spend time and resources looking for solutions that actually work, not just further drain the existing system of money, while at the same time opening the door to unregulated privatization. It feels like a bait and switch. I don't recall the case for charters being "lets just create more alternative school ideas with our limited tax dollars."

It seems to me that you would get similar results with the existing public schools we have if we switched to Grade Level Schools. 'A' level, 'B' level, 'C' level, and the rest , with opportunities to switch to a better level school if your grades improve. The students would sort themselves out by ability. Active parents in bad neighborhoods could still get their kid into an 'A' level school or 'B' level school, with similar students. That's basically what the magnet schools are. Why re-invent the wheel when you have a solution that already works?

I think there are two problems with your thinking. One is your implication that the number of kids who are going to succeed is a fixed number, and all that charters do is to cherry pick them and leave the rump public school system with the dregs. I vehemently disagree with your inference that the kids who will make it or who won't is independent of their school experience. There are very, very many kids who are lucky enough to find a place that works for them, and many, many kids who end up frustrated because they don't. The new, kid-driven approach to education where, instead of far too many kids intentionally being held back in the interest of 'fairness', families and educators are allowed to find good fits and to experiment with what works best for student and teacher should allow the maximum number of kids to shine. Secondly, the Philadelphia school district has intentionally stacked the deck against the charters by giving them the dreg schools, the worst of the worst, like Audenreid and Gratz. Mastery Charter School and KIPP are not cherry picking schools or students. They're taking the sad sack cases, and they're making great strides in the schools they've had for a few years, with even an effort being made to fix the feeder schools to failed high schools they take over, in an attempt to fix the problems at the root. I'd love to see a charter or charters take over William Penn. What a waste there.

Sadly, it is the charters who are supporting sports in the schools, because that is what the kids and their families want. That is one of the first things the publics cut out in their crisis management, which crisis has been going on for very many decades. Rendell threw money at the public system, only to find out that the increasing test scores were compromised by widespread cheating, and that wasteful spending like replacing Audenreid didn't fix the systemic problems at that school. We really do need spread our eggs to many baskets, and charters are just a basket to try out and compare to how other baskets are working (hint: the public basket, as a whole, has been holding us back terribly, both Philly vs the rest of the US and the US vs the rest of the world). Clearly building brand-new buildings with eye-popping budgets isn't going to solve the problem. Anyone could have told you that, anyone, that is, other than the people who cash the checks that Rendell wrote so freely.

I agree. As for providing quality education at the same cost - I am not familiar with the financials and how charters work, however, I do see that GW notes on its home page when asking for donations "As a public charter school, Green Woods receives 20% less funding compared to other Philadelphia Public schools. That's close to $2,000 less per student each year and we receive no funding for facilities!" I thought this meant the PSD saves 20% per pupil who attends a charter, which is one of the reasons why they would like 40% of Philly students attend charters in the future was to cut costs. Is that not the case?

I believe the spread between charter reimbursements and the cost to operate publics is much greater than $2k per student per year. Many people are upset that charters raise money over and above the district's reimbursements. This is yet another example of the failed mentality of holding back the high fliers in the interest of 'fairness' where everyone is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. It makes zero sense to intentionally hobble a school because to do so would be 'unfair' to other schools which don't have access to such resources - this thinking is insanity. Central High School should have an enormous endowment by now, paying for things like excellent athletic teams. Instead they're forced under the present idiotic system to go hat in hand every year like every other school to a broke district which holds Central back. The new thinking is that schools and students will no longer be held back. They will be allowed to be the best that they can be. The sooner that schools like Central are allowed to have their 'own' money to spend on their own priorities the better off those schools, and thus the city, will be.

[annie]

Questionable application processes at Green Woods, other charter schools | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

The district will also monitor Green Woods, which last month adopted a new admissions policy at the school district’s request. It has agreed to post applications online for at least eight weeks and give preference to students living in the catchment areas of several surrounding district schools.
And beginning next year, when Green Woods moves into a new permanent facility, the school is also supposed to host additional tours for parents.
But when a reporter called the school earlier this week, Green Woods staff said the application would only be made available at this year’s open house, again being held at a suburban country club.

Whoops.

[JackStraw]

By putting the school and the open house that are accessible by car, not public transit, you are excluding many urban applicants. Just because a parent doesn't own a car doesn't mean they won't volunteer their twenty hours if they can reach the school by bus or train. This school has been far too white for far too long for what is suppose to be a Philadelphia public school. Green Woods is a prime example of how a charter school uses public funds to pay for what is basically a private school. Having the application offered only once a year at an open house (not at the school, but at a conference center outside the city) is exclusionary. It has nothing to do with parental involvement, but class status.

[OldMama]

I'm sending a contribution to the Notebook. They are performing an essential service.

[billy ross]

The 27 bus goes from Center City to the Open House - both routes go to the Ace Center. The location is also not far from the Schuylkill River Trail; you don't need a car to get there. Very many neighborhood people - city residents - use Green Woods and are happy with it. We need more of this school, not less.

By putting the school and the open house that are accessible by car, not public transit, you are excluding many urban applicants. Just because a parent doesn't own a car doesn't mean they won't volunteer their twenty hours if they can reach the school by bus or train. This school has been far too white for far too long for what is suppose to be a Philadelphia public school. Green Woods is a prime example of how a charter school uses public funds to pay for what is basically a private school. Having the application offered only once a year at an open house (not at the school, but at a conference center outside the city) is exclusionary. It has nothing to do with parental involvement, but class status.

[seand]

By putting the school and the open house that are accessible by car, not public transit, you are excluding many urban applicants. Just because a parent doesn't own a car doesn't mean they won't volunteer their twenty hours if they can reach the school by bus or train. This school has been far too white for far too long for what is suppose to be a Philadelphia public school. Green Woods is a prime example of how a charter school uses public funds to pay for what is basically a private school. Having the application offered only once a year at an open house (not at the school, but at a conference center outside the city) is exclusionary. It has nothing to do with parental involvement, but class status.

I'm glad they are changing their application process. Its worthwhile to note that you are adopting a selective definition of "urban" in this post. Most of the Roxborough/Andorra area where the school is located is not particularly "urban" in this sense. Whether you think the people in that part of the city are "real" Philadelphians or not, they are officially. They pay their property taxes to the city just like everybody else does and have every bit as much a right to use those tax dollars proportionally to number of pupils to educate their kids as taxpayers/parents in any other part of our city. Not all of Philadelphia feels particularly urban and the area around nature reserve where the school was founded is about as far in the opposite direction as occurs within city limits.

I've read that they've moved to a more centralized location in "downtown" Roxborough, expanded the size of their school and adopted a new enrollment process. All sound like positive steps in the right direction towards making a positive, succesful free public education experience more available to Philadelphia residents. But again to me it seems stupid to attack free Philadelphia public schools that work very well for the kids that do attend instead of focusing on making the same opportunities available for more kids.

I would agree that for appearance sake it would be better to hold open houses at the school, though to be fair the same complaints you have about difficulty at getting to it would actually be siginficantly worse at the school's original location, despite being in the city. In fact at the beginning of this thread people were complaining that making parents come to the school to get the application was the problem. Now you are saying making them go to a large public meeting place on a bus line is the problem. When the application is online people will complain that by being on the internet its too exclusionary.

The problem is that starts to sound like your goal is really the same low level of academic success for everybody rather than taking the models that work very well for some public school students and making them available for more kids. In word, its not really about giving more equitable access to programs that work but to eliminate the concrete examples that show the default educational experience for most could actually be much, much better so parents just sit down and shut up. Which is both petty and sad.

[JackStraw]

Very many neighborhood people - city residents - use Green Woods and are happy with it.

Many white "city residents" use Green Woods. The school does not reflect the population around it.


We need more of this school, not less.

No one is advocating "less", but fair access to the school for ALL who live in the surrounding area. There is something wrong with a charter school that only offers its application once a year. As a public school it should be as accessible to all as public schools are, not just some.

[billy ross]

You need to get out of the suburbs every so often. Green Woods Charter School does indeed reflect the population around it. "The neighborhood" - i.e. Roxborough / Manayunk / East Falls - is very much different from what you suppose it to be. Green Woods has become the de facto neighborhood school.

Very many neighborhood people - city residents - use Green Woods and are happy with it.

Many white "city residents" use Green Woods. The school does not reflect the population around it.


We need more of this school, not less.

No one is advocating "less", but fair access to the school for ALL who live in the surrounding area. There is something wrong with a charter school that only offers its application once a year. As a public school it should be as accessible to all as public schools are, not just some.

[annie]

I look forward to seeing how Green Woods' new more accessible location and hopefully enforced application process might change the school - or not.

Interestingly enough a Parent was able to get her daughter into Greenwoods Charter School without having to attend their country club open house. She was able to get her daughter in after hearing from another Mom that her daughter was on a waiting list for the same grade. This means that the new student's mom had to obtain a private meeting late in the lottery process to secure a spot when a waiting list had already been published. This particular mom has many business and political connections in the Rox/Many area. She was also very active in the H&SA of the school her daughter left.
So if Greenwoods Charter School has a true "lottery " system how did this child get admitted?

[Brooke]

So...is Green Woods actually a better school or not? Just as a casual observer, I'd have to side with Annie here and say that something doesn't add up.

Is it enough to dissuade me from in 4 years trying to get my daughter in? No...but if it's not actually providing a better education and just self-selecting then I do have concerns. I should mention I now count myself amongst the people that may have to move to the burbs for schools if my daughter doesn't get into a good enough school. Private school and staying in the city makes sense for 1 kid. Not 2.

[Brenda]

Brooke, I have to second exactly what you said. I have two kids who are due to start school in 2014 and 2015. Me and my husband are also considering moving to the suburbs if our kids don't get accepted into a good enough school. There is a private school in our area that is semi-affordable for us, but they too have limited space. I'd really like to stay living where I am since my husband's commute to work is great and we have gotten comfortable here, but if we are not successful in obtaining a good enough school, we are out of here.

[billy ross]

Brooke, I have to second exactly what you said. I have two kids who are due to start school in 2014 and 2015. Me and my husband are also considering moving to the suburbs if our kids don't get accepted into a good enough school. There is a private school in our area that is semi-affordable for us, but they too have limited space. I'd really like to stay living where I am since my husband's commute to work is great and we have gotten comfortable here, but if we are not successful in obtaining a good enough school, we are out of here.

This is why we need more Green Woods Charter Schools and we need to pull the plug on places like William Penn High School. We're only cutting our own throats by indulging failed schools. It is both reprehensible and incredibly foolish that we chase people out of their homes in the cause of some misplaced, twisted sense of 'fairness' which holds that it's only fair to hold successes back so that they can be less better than the failures. Thankfully Harrisburg runs the show and Ron Tomalis believes in providing high quality choices to everyone, and we are indeed heading in that direction.

[JackStraw]

You need to get out of the suburbs every so often. Green Woods Charter School does indeed reflect the population around it. "The neighborhood" - i.e. Roxborough / Manayunk / East Falls - is very much different from what you suppose it to be. Green Woods has become the de facto neighborhood school.

So these neighborhoods are 80% white and affluent?
Questionable application processes at Green Woods, other charter schools | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

Since I teach in Philly I am in the city at least five days a week. Despite your previous lying about where I live I have never lived in New Jersey and did live in Philadelphia for a number of years. I can't help notice how you gloss over my remarks about the once a year application offered if you show up at some suburban club. Read the enclosed piece. I am not the only one that sees Green Woods charter as another dodge by the elites. Of course you also thought Ackerman was wonderful too so I guess I should expect this sort of thing.

[OldMama]

It must come as a huge surprise to the neighborhood people sending their kids to cook and Dobson that Greenwoods is the de facto neighborhood school.

[girlfiend]

So...is Green Woods actually a better school or not? Just as a casual observer, I'd have to side with Annie here and say that something doesn't add up.

Is it enough to dissuade me from in 4 years trying to get my daughter in? No...but if it's not actually providing a better education and just self-selecting then I do have concerns. I should mention I now count myself amongst the people that may have to move to the burbs for schools if my daughter doesn't get into a good enough school. Private school and staying in the city makes sense for 1 kid. Not 2.

My husband spent some time looking at PSSA scores after reading the article in the Notebook. Green Woods' 3rd grade PSSA test scores places them at or near the bottom when compared to the other public schools in Roxborough. Despite having “significant barriers to entry,” one of the “most affluent student bodies in the city” and “the lowest poverty rate of any public school in the city,” their third graders could not outperform the three neighborhood public schools. Dobson, Cook, and Shawmont all had more students scoring advanced. When you combine advanced and proficient scores, Green Woods still finishes at the bottom with one exception. Green Woods combined advanced and proficient scores in reading places them 3rd, just above Shawmont. But Shawmont still has more advanced 3rd graders than Green Woods.

School Assessments

[seand]

I am not the only one that sees Green Woods charter as another dodge by the elites.

You should really tone down the rhetoric a little. Unless you consider the predominantly white, middle class population of Roxborough "the elites".

The population of Philadelphia is 44% black, 39% white, 5% Asian, 12.5% Hispanic
Demographics of Philadelphia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The school district of Philadelphia student body is around 65% black, 15% white, 5% Asian, 15% Hispanic
School District of Philadelphia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Green Woods
11% black, 85% white, 2% Asian, 1% Native American
Student Teacher Ratio Green Woods Charter School - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - PA

I can't find a handy map for 2010 but for 2000 the student population at Green Woods is pretty consistant with all of its surrounding census tracts.


For better or worse, Green Woods attracts a student body that looks very much like its surrounding census tracts but the Philadelphia School District as a whole attracts a student body that looks nothing like the actual population of Philadelphia in that it scews disproportionally poor and black.

So is the problem that Green Woods is failing to serve its neighboring communities or that the school district as a whole is considered a failure and non-option by a lot of non-poor, non-black parents?

[JackStraw]

The school district of Philadelphia student body is around 65% black, 15% white, 5% Asian, 15% Hispanic
School District of Philadelphia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Green Woods
11% black, 85% white, 2% Asian, 1% Native American
Student Teacher Ratio Green Woods Charter School - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - PA

I can't find a handy map for 2010 but for 2000 the student population at Green Woods is pretty consistant with all of its surrounding census tracts.


For better or worse, Green Woods attracts a student body that looks very much like its surrounding census tracts but the Philadelphia School District as a whole attracts a student body that looks nothing like the actual population of Philadelphia in that it scews disproportionally poor and black.

So is the problem that Green Woods is failing to serve its neighboring communities or that the school district as a whole is considered a failure and non-option by a lot of non-poor, non-black parents?

You really consider Wikipedia a source of realistic info? Anyone can go on it and "edit" it. Ackerman use to say that the school district as 80% black. 65% sounds low. If Green Woods is on the level why have they relied on their "one night a year get your application process" for so long? If they truly reflect their surroundings you wouldn't think they'd need to do such a thing.

[seand]

They also let you get the application at the school. Which folks in this thread also criticized.

They truly reflect the demographics of their 5 surrounding census tracts from what I can see, yes, whether by design or by accident. Feel free to try to prove otherwise.

RE: wikipedia, yes everyone can edit and then edit back, in effect making wikipedia exactly as reliable as its publically available source material. This is a really tired argument and needs to be put out to pasture.

In this case wikipedia was pulling from older information from the school district's own website. Current information from the school district has the black population even less.

Current: black 56.2%, white 14.1%, Hispanic 18.6%, Asian 7.4%
http://www.phila.k12.pa.us/about/#enrollment

[Dupont Dad]

There is no doubt that Dobson, Cook and Shawmont all have very strong test scores. If you look at test scores for all grades, however, instead of just picking third grade, it's no longer possible to make Green Woods look bad compared to the other schools in the neighborhood. For all grades, based on 2012 PSSA results, Green Woods has a higher percentage of students scoring at the advanced level in both math and reading than Cook, Dobson, or Shawmont. More than half of GW students score advanced both in math (50.7 percent) and reading (52.4 percent) And 86.6 percent of students at Green Woods score either advanced or proficient in math, and 86.2 percent in reading. This is more than 10 points higher than any of the other three schools. And almost every student at Green Woods (97-98 percent) performs at least at a basic level.

Test scores are obviously only one metric for judging a school, but on that metric, Green Woods students as whole do in fact outperform the three neighborhood public schools, and by a significant margin.

http://thenotebook.org/sites/default...hia%202012.pdf

My husband spent some time looking at PSSA scores after reading the article in the Notebook. Green Woods' 3rd grade PSSA test scores places them at or near the bottom when compared to the other public schools in Roxborough. Despite having “significant barriers to entry,” one of the “most affluent student bodies in the city” and “the lowest poverty rate of any public school in the city,” their third graders could not outperform the three neighborhood public schools. Dobson, Cook, and Shawmont all had more students scoring advanced. When you combine advanced and proficient scores, Green Woods still finishes at the bottom with one exception. Green Woods combined advanced and proficient scores in reading places them 3rd, just above Shawmont. But Shawmont still has more advanced 3rd graders than Green Woods.

School Assessments

[RFS]

There is no doubt that Dobson, Cook and Shawmont all have very strong test scores. If you look at test scores for all grades, however, instead of just picking third grade, it's no longer possible to make Green Woods look bad compared to the other schools in the neighborhood.

Dupont Dad and I could engage in endless dialogue explaining, manipulating, and discrediting PSSA data that we both probably agree is nominal in assessing the quality of the institution. For example, I'd point out that 2011 4th grade advanced scores place Green Woods at the bottom again and he would make some equally compelling statistical point. But the important argument is that the educational philosophy and legislative justification behind the charter school initiative was not to provide white middle class parents a with a taxpayer funded school composed primarily of white middle class children. Charter schools were created to provide educational opportunities to children living in areas where the schools were unsafe and ineffective. All three Roxborough schools are safe and effective. No other neighborhood in Philadelphia can be so proud. Our local public schools are bound by law to accept all students. There are no barriers to entry at Cook, Shawmont, or Dobson. Should not the same be true for Green Woods? Cook, Shawmont, and Dobson serve children with multiple disabilities, IEPs, and 504 plans who come from diverse racial and socioeconomic backgrounds. Not only are these schools true democratic institutions, Dobson, Cook, and Shawmont are high performing, safe schools. I'm not convinced that charter schools are viable solutions in any part of the city, but in keeping with the spirit of the charter school initiative the services Green Woods provides should be provided in a neighborhood where the schools are failing and where children do not have adequate access to a free and appropriate public education. I don't think that the cognitive dissonance of the more enlightened Green Woods parents keeps them up at night, but when the facts of the educational landscape of this city are objectively examined, these same parents, if honest, should acknowledge that Green Woods is an institution that goes to extraordinary lengths to limit children's access to education.