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  1. #361
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naveen View Post
    Yeah but comparing this salary to other bloated salaries shouldn't be where we start from. We shouldn't create an unreasonably low standard, but looking at the size of a budget shouldn't be how we determine salaries. The U.S. Secretary of Defense makes $199K and has a bit more than $2.5bn to manage.
    Well, I think we are just quoting the budget because it is an easy indicator that it isn't a small government department, not necessarily saying it is all that matters.

    Paying these guys like we have hasn't produced very good results so far. Why don't we start with a low salary and give them large bonuses for results, instead of starting high and giving them modest bonuses for mediocre results?
    Probably for the same reason it is difficult to pay teachers by bonus: agreeing on criteria that matters mixed with what is in their control. Part of the problem with the school district is there are also political issues that determine a lot of the top level results.

    I mean, I am not discounting your point. Heck, you may be right and the best solution isn't necessarily caring about hiring someone with vision, but hiring a fleet of talented lawyers and accountants that are well qualified to balance the books and know the laws they have to deal with and just hiring someone at the top that is a good bureaucrat that makes sure things get done and lets the politicians fight over policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by OffenseTaken View Post
    You're right, but I think you're addressing a much wider issue than the salary Hite's bringing in: namely, whether public service should be a means to getting rich, and whether enriching public servants really is necessary for attracting talented individuals to the job. This is a frequent bone of contention in the legal field, thanks to the growing gap between judges' salaries and those of their peers still in private practice. Richard Posner wrote a piece about it not long ago (Judicial Salaries--Posner - The Becker-Posner Blog), which your argument about superintendent salaries reminded me of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naveen View Post
    Yeah, that really is what I'm getting at.

    That post was incredibly hard to read because of the lack of formatting (not your fault, obviously), so I had to skim a bit. But the basic conclusion -- that a lawyer making $1 million a year isn't going to walk away from that to be a judge because a judge's salary was increased from $175K to $250K -- is I think correct.

    I agree we shouldn't be overly stingy -- people should get paid appropriately for what they do. But to tie government salaries to both their importance and budgetary responsibilities in a way that is commensurate with the private sector would bankrupt us all (especially for the more senior positions).

    And really, do we want public servants whose #1 criteria in accepting a position is how much they can make from it? I think if that's the kind of people we're trying to recruit, we're setting ourselves up for some serious problems down the road. Let those people go into finance. They already cause enough problems there.
    I don't really think that many people go into public service because of some sort of calling and a good retirement package. Many of us have dealt with City Hall. While there are a lot of good people working there, does anyone really feel a large chunk of that workforce is doing it because of a civic calling?

  2. #362
    Naveen is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    Probably for the same reason it is difficult to pay teachers by bonus: agreeing on criteria that matters mixed with what is in their control. Part of the problem with the school district is there are also political issues that determine a lot of the top level results.

    I mean, I am not discounting your point. Heck, you may be right and the best solution isn't necessarily caring about hiring someone with vision, but hiring a fleet of talented lawyers and accountants that are well qualified to balance the books and know the laws they have to deal with and just hiring someone at the top that is a good bureaucrat that makes sure things get done and lets the politicians fight over policy.
    Good points. The idea of what is in the control is a big thing, IMO. Whether teacher or superintendent, you're dealing with a student body which is disporportionately coming from poor families, and that really may be the biggest problem facing the district.

    I don't really think that many people go into public service because of some sort of calling and a good retirement package. Many of us have dealt with City Hall. While there are a lot of good people working there, does anyone really feel a large chunk of that workforce is doing it because of a civic calling?
    I wasn't talking about the average worker, who's essentially just a functionary. I'm talking about the higher ups, and hope they aren't looking at their job the same way someone at their level in the private sector would.

  3. #363
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    "If you're going to tell people the truth, you better make them laugh; otherwise they'll kill you."
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  4. #364
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  5. #365
    macdaire is offline Senior Member
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    No matter how many articles I read on this issue, I am still incredulous and sad. At the high school level elementary and middle school scores are frequently used for class placement. This scandal has negated this process.

  6. #366
    annie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdaire View Post
    No matter how many articles I read on this issue, I am still incredulous and sad. At the high school level elementary and middle school scores are frequently used for class placement. This scandal has negated this process.
    Not to mention the School Performance Index which heavily relies on test scores and has been used to determine what schools go Renaissance and will now be used as a factor determining closures.

    I really want everyone that was at the Roosevelt Middle press conference a few years back touting 50% increases in test scores, Ackerman, Rendell, the head of the PA Department of Education etc., to have to answer for this. They set the tone for what would be expected and rewarded, statistical improbability be damned.

  7. #367
    annie's Avatar
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    As school starts, no action against Philly principals where cheating is suspected | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

    A recent state probe of cheating in Atlanta is generally considered to be the gold standard for such efforts. There, 50 trained investigators worked full time for more than a year. The resulting report documented cheating at 44 schools and formally accused 178 teachers and administrators of wrongdoing. The vast majority of those accused have since retired or resigned.
    Here, a comparatively small team from the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General has been conducting on-the-ground investigations at 11 District schools since January. Sources say those investigations are nearing completion, but there has been no official word.
    At 20 other schools, the district is receiving pro bono investigatory help from the law firm Morgan, Lewis, Bockius LLP. After getting a late start, the volunteer attorneys have made contact with only a small handful of schools under their purview. District officials say they expect their investigations to be complete by the end of the calendar year.
    At 22 other District schools involved in the probe, many of which show strong evidence of cheating, state officials have mandated only further "analytic review," not direct questioning of personnel who may have witnessed or participated in improper behavior
    Why is this not an issue of importance for the state? How can we continue closing schools based on past performance when the data is in doubt? How can the district move to a decentralized principal-lead model if there are no or few repercussions for this?

  8. #368
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by annie View Post
    As school starts, no action against Philly principals where cheating is suspected | Philadelphia Public School Notebook



    Why is this not an issue of importance for the state? How can we continue closing schools based on past performance when the data is in doubt? How can the district move to a decentralized principal-lead model if there are no or few repercussions for this?
    +200 Using tests as any kind of measuring stick for whether a school's policies are working only works at all if punishment for cheating is swift, substantive and uniformly enforced.

  9. #369
    Eastcoast is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by annie View Post
    Why is this not an issue of importance for the state? How can we continue closing schools based on past performance when the data is in doubt? How can the district move to a decentralized principal-lead model if there are no or few repercussions for this?
    Be strong Annie.

    Small tectonic steps.

  10. #370
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    The cheating scandal just reinforced how rotten the present system is. Since such extreme steps were taken to preserve the integrity of the testing process the last time around, I imagine that that test and ones going forward will be relied upon but that suspect tests from before will be thrown out. From the standpoint of which schools get closed, I believe that school choice plays a part - if local parents choose to send their kids elsewhere and so that school is operating well under capacity, it is likely to close. You can say that parents don't know any better, but that would be arrogant, and there are much worse methods to use than whether parents are willing to send their kids to that school or not. A school with a line out the door - like Green Woods Charter or Meredith - won't be closed. A school which is begging for students - like Levering or William Penn - would or at least should close. There is a bit of a market system happening now with schools in Philly, with parents and students having some choice. It's highly imperfect, but it's becoming more and more efficient every year. Fixing the tests is a part of that, of course. It's tough to make decisions without hard, dispassionate data - hard, that is, but not impossible. We do it every time we go to the grocery store or to a restaurant, or even when we choose a home to live in. We rely upon hearsay, advice of friends, gut feeling, a walk around the neighborhood, etc.
    Last edited by billy ross; 08-29-2012 at 10:06 PM.

  11. #371
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    Briefly...CITY/REGION

    PHILADELPHIA
    Nunery leaves district
    Leroy Nunery III, who took over as interim superintendent after the dramatic exit of Arlene Ackerman, officially ended his employment with the Philadelphia School District on Friday.
    Hired in April 2010 as chief of institutional advancement and strategic partnerships, Nunery was deputy superintendent before Ackerman left. He was pushed aside in January, when the district's budget crisis become insurmountable.

    Nunery's LinkedIn page says he's back working with the educational-consulting firm he founded, PlusUltre LLC.
    This notice was so tiny even I didn't notice it. It appears Mr. Nunery will no longer be parking "LEE'S TOY" (as the front vanity plate read) at 440 N. Broad.

    Consultant Paul Kihn picked as deputy superintendent for Philadelphia schools

    Paul Kihn, now a leader of the global consulting firm McKinsey & Co.'s education practice, will begin work in the district by Oct. 1, when new Superintendent William R. Hite Jr. starts. Hite confirmed the appointment Thursday night.

    "This is an exciting choice," said Hite. "I'm really encouraged by the fact that I've been able to attract someone of Paul's caliber to join me in Philadelphia."

    Kihn will be paid $210,000.

  12. #372
    annie's Avatar
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    Philly School District embarks on a year with big changes

    Seems that Hite will be going along with the school closings but not so much with the Achievement Networks.

  13. #373
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    The Boston plan is sort of a plan for someone who wants more local autonomy but also wants not to have the buck stop in terms of performance with the head office but with the Achievement Networks. It sounds like Hite likes breaking the district into smaller chunks for management/performance tracking purposes but ultimately he wants the buck to stop with him.

    Any organization that manages schools at the scale the Philadelphia school system has is "ripe for some of the issues school districts face," Hite said, adding that successful charter organizations have done good work in part because they remain at a manageable size.

    "I'm for autonomy, I'm for this notion of performance as opposed to compliance, I'm for devolving decision-making to schools," he said. "I'm not for just giving that up to other individuals or independent entities to do. Not at the moment."

  14. #374
    annie's Avatar
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    SRC adopts 5-year financial plan | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

    Knudsen plans to borrow $300 million and cut spending on salaries by $100 million. That almost certainly means cancelling the PFT contract in a year.

    And once again, Dworetzky is the only one that gets it:
    Commissioner Joseph Dworetzky, in a prepared statement, described provisions of the plan as "bitter medicine" and suggested that the SRC must redouble its efforts to find other savings through better oversight of contracts and spending on the education providers it is relying on to create more "high-performing seats" for students.

  15. #375
    annie's Avatar
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    District promoted principals from schools under suspicion for cheating | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

    In both 2010 and 2011, Mansion was spared while seven of Philadelphia's other neighborhood high schools with chronically poor test scores were either reconstituted or converted into charter schools as part of the District's Renaissance Schools turnaround initiative. At the time of intervention, those schools - Audenried, Germantown, Simon Gratz, Martin Luther King, Olney East and Olney West, and West Philadelphia – all had test scores similar to, or even better than, Mansion's 2012 results.
    And just last spring, the School Reform Commission voted to close two of Mansion's neighboring high schools, FitzSimons and Rhodes. Poor academic performance was one consideration for the decision. Those schools' students are now being sent to Mansion.
    Heartbreaking.

    The principal at Strawberry Mansion during the alleged cheating, Lois Powell-Mondesire, was promoted to an administration position advising principals and given a raise. Before people start wondering about her name, she's been divorced from Jerry for a long time and will tell reporters she's no relation to him which, I guess, is technically true.

    There's a lot more in the article and it's all pretty awful.

  16. #376
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by annie View Post
    District promoted principals from schools under suspicion for cheating | Philadelphia Public School Notebook



    Heartbreaking.

    The principal at Strawberry Mansion during the alleged cheating, Lois Powell-Mondesire, was promoted to an administration position advising principals and given a raise. Before people start wondering about her name, she's been divorced from Jerry for a long time and will tell reporters she's no relation to him which, I guess, is technically true.

    There's a lot more in the article and it's all pretty awful.
    Is the entire list of schools with suspicious erasure marks available somewhere?

    I'm glad this stuff is coming out but I would love a graphic time-line with headshots for each principal where there were erasure patterns and for subsequent test scores after the erasure patterns stopped. I'd like to see those principals not only canned but unable to find work in district anywhere after this, because districts in other parts of the country should be able to Google and find out about the cheating. Punishments should be severe and unflinching. They should literally be forced to start over again in another industry, end of story.

    There is literally no excuse for this.
    Last edited by seand; 09-20-2012 at 01:09 PM.

  17. #377
    annie's Avatar
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    It's not quite the chart you're looking for but it's what we have.

    32 District schools to get new principals | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

    School New Principal
    Barry Elementary Robin McCoy-Wilkins
    Ben Franklin HS Greg Hailey (acting)
    Bok HS Barbara McCreery
    Bryant Elementary Roy McKinney
    Carnell Elementary Hilderbrand Pelzer
    Catharine Elementary Patricia Hunter
    Central HS Timothy McKenna
    Childs Elementary Eileen Coutts
    Dobbins HS Toni Damon
    Edison HS Charles Baltimore (acting)
    Ethel Allen Promise Elementary Stefan Feaster-Eberhardt
    Ferguson Elementary Carol Williams
    Fitler Academics Plus Elementary Anthious Boone
    Fulton Elementary Jala Olds-Pearson
    Furness HS Daniel Peou
    HA Brown Elementary Connie Carnivale
    Henry Elementary Fatima Rogers
    Heston Elementary Angela Gaddie-Edwards
    J.B. Kelly Elementary Chris Byrd
    Kenderton Elementary Robert Rouse
    Leidy Elementary Gina Steiner
    Lowell Elementary David Lugo (acting)
    Mayfair Elementary Guy Lowery
    McMichael Elementary Brian Wallace
    Penrose Elementary Huie Douglas
    Pennypack House Barbara Wells
    Pratt Elementary Leta Johnson
    Richmond Elementary Susan Rozanski
    Southwark Elementary June Tran
    Strawberry Mansion HS Linda Cliatt-Wayman
    Webster Elementary Robert Frazier (special assignment)
    Wright Elementary Shauneille Taylor
    I suppose you could make the chart yourself by Googling where the principals were before.
    Last edited by annie; 09-20-2012 at 02:51 PM.

  18. #378
    annie's Avatar
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    Pennsylvania Dept of Education - Academic Achievement Report

    PSSA scores and AYP are up on the Department of Education site. If you choose a school and hit the "Performance" tab and then check the box to see the 2011 scores as well, you can see a pretty significant drop in the schools suspected of cheating. The 33 Philly schools that made Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) were largely known high-performing schools that mostly keep their scores close to the previous year's.

  19. #379
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Heard on KYW this morning that the SDP is expecting 15-20% drops in scores because of cheating. Pretty much wipes out any claims Ackerman could make about things turning around under her watch.

  20. #380
    annie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    Heard on KYW this morning that the SDP is expecting 15-20% drops in scores because of cheating. Pretty much wipes out any claims Ackerman could make about things turning around under her watch.
    Overall, maybe. There are individual scores whose scores stayed pretty close to where they were.

    Here you can download a massive Excel file of all the scores by school, breaking them down by grade and Advanced, Proficient, Basic and Below Basic statewide.

    Interestingly, Laboratory, Ad Prima and Planet Abacus, who have been long been rumored to prevent struggling students from enrolling and counseling out those who make it through the admissions process, have lots of grade levels where no students (0, Zero) were Below Basic. At a cursory glance, the only other school with a similar pattern is Green Woods. Even high-performing neighborhood schools like Penn Alexander and Meredith have some students in the Below Basic category (they also have Special Ed populations though I don't know if in significant numbers to require subset testing).

    Is it that they don't allow their students to struggle or they don't allow struggling students to remain enrolled? I don't know.

 

 

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