Is Your Degree Worth The Debt?

[ArcticSplash]

My degree isn't worth the debt! - Erik Solecki (1) - CNNMoney

For many, it's definitely not.

[BarryG]

Exactly why Drexel is making a giant mistake by planning huge expansion fueled by growing their BA programs. The bubble is going to pop.

[desolate]

Exactly why Drexel is making a giant mistake by planning huge expansion fueled by growing their BA programs. The bubble is going to pop.

I mean just look at Penn.

Right?

Or Temple. Both...oh wait they are basically rebuilding neighborhoods. Making their own campuses business engines.

It's cute hearing this anti-college dribble start from the Neo-Con Board Memebers and work it's way down to the simple peasants.


The Neo-Cons love to harp on the cost while blatantly ignoring all the "buisness" they so love and how much is supported by the education industry.

No GSK, No Science Center... if no Penn.

[BarryG]

I mean just look at Penn.

Right?

Or Temple. Both...oh wait they are basically rebuilding neighborhoods. Making their own campuses business engines.

It's cute hearing this anti-college dribble start from the Neo-Con Board Memebers and work it's way down to the simple peasants.


The Neo-Cons love to harp on the cost while blatantly ignoring all the "buisness" they so love and how much is supported by the education industry.

No GSK, No Science Center... if no Penn.

I'm no Neo-Con. I know Penn drives the Philly economy. And Penn will have full classes forever, and can charge a high price for them because they are worth the money. An MBA or law degree from Drexel? Not so much. Let alone a communications or "management" undergrad degree. Drexel is dumping money into these programs because they are highly profitable, but that is not going to last forever.

You will never hear me criticize Penn's expansion.

The housing bubble burst at the peak. That's how bubbles work.

ETA: Philadelphia University is catching the expensive expansion bug now too.

[Freckles]

Back on topic:

I have 2 degrees from Penn. Student loans are a little annoying right now, but we still manage to live comfortably. Having Penn on my resume has opened many doors that I don't know would have otherwise been opened.

[BarryG]

I mean just look at Penn.

Right?

Or Temple. Both...oh wait they are basically rebuilding neighborhoods. Making their own campuses business engines.

It's cute hearing this anti-college dribble start from the Neo-Con Board Memebers and work it's way down to the simple peasants.


The Neo-Cons love to harp on the cost while blatantly ignoring all the "buisness" they so love and how much is supported by the education industry.

No GSK, No Science Center... if no Penn.

And also, none of this is "anti-college." It's an argument against inflation at universities that is over 10%, all subsidized by government loan programs. Why should college costs be so ahead of general inflation? BUBBLE.

[phillycat]

You are uninformed. College costs increase because college is a people-intensive business. The costs of employing actual people has not gone down in the last 20 years, it has gone way, way up, mainly because of healthcare costs.

Things are cheaper to make now because you can outsource all the jobs to China and technology allows you to make logistical improvements that decrease your variable costs. These savings are not available to colleges -- in fact, technology has just made operating costs higher -- every college needs to have a complete IT department now that's larger than some corporations.

Private college tuition has increased across the board (because of increased fixed costs but also just because peer institutions have to keep their 'sticker price' comparable or they won't be peers anymore) but that is only one option for college out of many. Public college tuition is still quite low, except for flagships like Penn State (one of the most expensive public colleges).

Most college students pay nowhere near 'sticker price' for tuition. Look into where the majority of student loan money is spent and you'll see a great deal of it goes to maintaining a certain standard of living. Most state college's tuition is pegged to the maximum Pell Grant, which means that for most students with middle-class or lower-income parents they have the option to go to college with tuition mostly covered by grants. Yes, there are living expenses, but exactly how would you expect a child to spend their years between the ages of 17 and 22 that would not incur any living expenses?

The physical expansions of colleges have little to do with the increases in tuition. In many cases there is land that the colleges already own that has been sitting fallow for some time. with borrowing and construction costs low right now it is actually a good time to build -- the 'pie' of undergraduate students is not expanding but every college thinks they can and should try to grab a larger piece of the market share -- just like corporations. New facilites that can be amortized over time is actually one of the cheaper ways of attracting more students.

[BarryG]

You are uninformed. College costs increase because college is a people-intensive business. The costs of employing actual people has not gone down in the last 20 years, it has gone way, way up, mainly because of healthcare costs.

Things are cheaper to make now because you can outsource all the jobs to China and technology allows you to make logistical improvements that decrease your variable costs. These savings are not available to colleges -- in fact, technology has just made operating costs higher -- every college needs to have a complete IT department now that's larger than some corporations.

Private college tuition has increased across the board (because of increased fixed costs but also just because peer institutions have to keep their 'sticker price' comparable or they won't be peers anymore) but that is only one option for college out of many. Public college tuition is still quite low, except for flagships like Penn State (one of the most expensive public colleges).

Most college students pay nowhere near 'sticker price' for tuition. Look into where the majority of student loan money is spent and you'll see a great deal of it goes to maintaining a certain standard of living. Most state college's tuition is pegged to the maximum Pell Grant, which means that for most students with middle-class or lower-income parents they have the option to go to college with tuition mostly covered by grants. Yes, there are living expenses, but exactly how would you expect a child to spend their years between the ages of 17 and 22 that would not incur any living expenses?

The physical expansions of colleges have little to do with the increases in tuition. In many cases there is land that the colleges already own that has been sitting fallow for some time. with borrowing and construction costs low right now it is actually a good time to build -- the 'pie' of undergraduate students is not expanding but every college thinks they can and should try to grab a larger piece of the market share -- just like corporations. New facilites that can be amortized over time is actually one of the cheaper ways of attracting more students.

Sorry, all bull****. The price is up because demand is skyrocketing. Period. Cry me a river about IT costs, they aren't going up 10% a year, or if they are, the budgeting is worse than the School District of Phila. You did hit the nail on the head about new facilities being used to attract students but not improving education in any meaningful way. Students will figure that out soon.

[phillycat]

you are rude but I'll respond anyway. it's not just IT costs, obviously. That's just an example of a cost center every college, no matter how small, must have now that did not exist 20 years ago.

where do you get that demand is skyrocketing? it isn't. it has grown some in the past five years but that's a demographic bubble and all colleges know it, and it varies across programs. demand for nursing programs is high. not so much for philosophy.

I don't think any college claims that expansions improve education, or that tuition increases are because they are improving education. But offering a solid education (as most colleges do) isn't enough to grow your market share or improve your reputation.

[BarryG]

you are rude but I'll respond anyway. it's not just IT costs, obviously. That's just an example of a cost center every college, no matter how small, must have now that did not exist 20 years ago.

where do you get that demand is skyrocketing? it isn't. it has grown some in the past five years but that's a demographic bubble and all colleges know it, and it varies across programs. demand for nursing programs is high. not so much for philosophy.

I don't think any college claims that expansions improve education, or that tuition increases are because they are improving education. But offering a solid education (as most colleges do) isn't enough to grow your market share or improve your reputation.

You've got to be kidding. Colleges had computer labs before many businesses had computers on every desk. Fortune 500 companies have huge IT operations too. And of course technology costs go down every year, not up. Every other consumer service (except for health care, another industry dominated by "non-profit" organizations) remain inline with inflation. Why is education different? Your reasons are absurd.

So prices have been rising 5x inflation for 20 years because of fancy dorms. That's the point. Students will catch on at some point. Also, you didn't mention all the layers of administration that have been added over the past twenty years.

I'm not rude, you are literally full of ****.

[MetalDeth81]

Shrug. As long as Drexel maintains its image as a decent engineering/science school, I think my computer science degree is worth it. I know in the 6 years or so since finishing Drexel the degree alone has given me probably at least an extra $50k in salary over the years. I'd like to think I'm getting a pretty good ROI (with PLENTY of financial aid grant money from Drexel, I only had $40k in loans at graduation, $115/mo payment)

[Dolemite]

new facilities being used to attract students

Actually I think new facilities are more about attracting Faculty that bring in grant money. As far as Drexel, it has already attracted the students it needs more space for classrooms and labs for all of these students. And as for IT cost - now that is something that might be attracting students as all of the new students have expectations after seeing what private industry offers. Universities have been spending the last decade trying to catch up with what private industry offers so it's not surprising that their IT budgets have grown at 10%, but they started at such a low place to begin with.

[Dolemite]

You've got to be kidding. Colleges had computer labs before many businesses had computers on every desk.

Do you seriously think Colleges offered students the same IT services before or at the same time as private industry?

[BarryG]

Do you seriously think Colleges offered students the same IT services before or at the same time as private industry?

Yes. It's a fact. Students and researchers were rocking punchcards when IBM was still trying to convince most businesses they even needed a computer.

MetalDeth, the Drexel CompSci and MIS (or whatever they call it there) students I have met are good.

[MetalDeth81]

Do you seriously think Colleges offered students the same IT services before or at the same time as private industry?

At Drexel? Yes

[Dolemite]

Yes. It's a fact.

You are wrong.

[NonAbsolut]

where do you get that demand is skyrocketing? it isn't. it has grown some in the past five years but that's a demographic bubble and all colleges know it, and it varies across programs. demand for nursing programs is high. not so much for philosophy.

Enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 14 percent between 1987 and 1997. Between 1997 and 2007, enrollment increased at a faster rate (26 percent), from 14.5 million to 18.2 million. During that same period (1997-2007,) the number of 18- to 24-year-olds increased from 25.5 million to 29.5 million, an increase of 16 percent. Clearly, the demand is outpacing the demographic bubble. Some of this can be tied to an increase in women and minorities attending college. Regardless, it's unsustainable to have 39% (in 2007) of 18- 24-year-olds enrolled in college. There are not enough jobs to support them, and the sheer magnitude is making their liberal arts degrees useless (with the exception of the very top echelon of schools.)

[StrangeTanks]

I think what you guys are ignoring is that fact that there are a huge number of people who go to college to get ridiculous degrees. Lots of times they are paying for undergrad degrees in majors that would require post grad to actually get a job. But they never have any intention of actually going to grad school.

[BarryG]

I think what you guys are ignoring is that fact that there are a huge number of people who go to college to get ridiculous degrees. Lots of times they are paying for undergrad degrees in majors that would require post grad to actually get a job. But they never have any intention of actually going to grad school.

That's been my point the entire time. And the excess demand created by these schlubs is what is driving up costs to unsustainable levels.

[toxigal]

My degree isn't worth the debt! - Erik Solecki (1) - CNNMoney

For many, it's definitely not.

considering the majority of my debt is for a degree i didn't get (masters of forensic science). no. however, i wouldn't change it because ultimately it led me back to school to get my doctorate in forensic toxicology which got me the job i have now, which really is my dream job. that and well, it's my debt really no use fretting if it's worth it, i can't undo it!