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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    Sometimes I have to wonder if you ever set foot out of East Falls, let alone into a public school. You do realize this is Philadelphia, right?
    Or takes his head out of his ass?
    I am not the Jackass Whisperer.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    Of course. That's why I used the phrase "parental satisfaction, or the lack thereof". Some people are highly satisfied with their children's educational situation in Philly. Many others aren't, and those who can vote with their feet. It's not too much to ask that we deliver parental satisfaction. If you don't believe that that is possible, then you are a defeatist. It is possible, and it is happening, although it is being fought by the educational establishment.
    Why make them vote with thier feet? Why not offer them something that works? It might come to a shock to you, but lots of kids with potential don't have parents who are involved enough to jump through the hoops to get their kids in a charter school (and I've had kids in charters, so I know what it takes). I've got neighbors who work two jobs and simply don't have the time to research which schools are good and which ones suck (and some charters and private schools suck just as bad as the public schools). Are you willing to commit those kids to a tier of schools that are just holding pens for the disadvantaged? What's your threshold for writing kids off?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryG View Post
    Since PA and the cities cannot run a deficit, we do pay for all of our entitlements. The pension issue is much worse in the long run because the pensions are an unfunded obligation.
    I'll agree the pension problem is huge, but the unions didn't exactly force those on us. Our elected leaders agreed to it. Who is accountable for that? The unions, whose job it is is to get the best deal for their members, or the people who keep voting the same idiot who agreed to it back into office? Face it, people haven't paid attention to, or been involved in state and local government for a long time, and now we reap the whirlwind. And guess what? People still aren't paying attention.

  4. #84
    BarryG is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    I'll agree the pension problem is huge, but the unions didn't exactly force those on us. Our elected leaders agreed to it. Who is accountable for that? The unions, whose job it is is to get the best deal for their members, or the people who keep voting the same idiot who agreed to it back into office? Face it, people haven't paid attention to, or been involved in state and local government for a long time, and now we reap the whirlwind. And guess what? People still aren't paying attention.
    Can't argue with that. I could go on about why this is evidence that the very concept of a public workers' union is a bad idea--look at the political donation links I put here and on the other thread--but that is off-topic. Here's a good article to your point however: Budgets and bargaining power: Government workers don't need unions | The Economist

  5. #85
    raider.adam is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    That's my point. They have the same working arrangement, and produce a very satisfactory result. All I suggest is that before we damn the teachers and administrators, we look at the real differences in the system, and figure it out from there. The biggest difference is the students and the parents, and the conditions they come from. Until we take a serious, sober look at that, we can fool with the schools all we want, and we will still fail.
    I agree and it goes both ways. On one hand we shouldn't be laying the blame on the teachers, but it also means the argument that if we just throw more money at teacher salaries, it will solve the problems as well, is false.

    That's why I have no desire to beat up the teachers (I do have some issues with the teacher unions though).

    Again, to circle back to my common statement, i support charters because it allows people to try to find solutions as opposed to hoping a central agency to find them.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by raider.adam View Post
    I agree and it goes both ways. On one hand we shouldn't be laying the blame on the teachers, but it also means the argument that if we just throw more money at teacher salaries, it will solve the problems as well, is false.
    I have yet to hear many teachers raise the issue of salaries. Most I know go on about class size, inadequate resources and an inability to deal effectively with problem students.

    Again, to circle back to my common statement, i support charters because it allows people to try to find solutions as opposed to hoping a central agency to find them.
    And, I support chaters, too. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to this. As I've stated a few times now, the problem is much more complex than "fix the schools." We've tried that a host of different ways, and with some success and some failure. It's going to take a lot of different and innovative thinking to reach and involve kids from stressed and broken homes. I don't disagree with your desire to take a critical look at the schools, but I strongly disagree with the notion that some have that the solution is to scrap public education as we know it.

  7. #87
    billy ross is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    I have yet to hear many teachers raise the issue of salaries. Most I know go on about class size, inadequate resources and an inability to deal effectively with problem students.



    And, I support chaters, too. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to this. As I've stated a few times now, the problem is much more complex than "fix the schools." We've tried that a host of different ways, and with some success and some failure. It's going to take a lot of different and innovative thinking to reach and involve kids from stressed and broken homes. I don't disagree with your desire to take a critical look at the schools, but I strongly disagree with the notion that some have that the solution is to scrap public education as we know it.
    The public schools' inability to deal with disruptive students who make it hard for the teacher and fellow students should have been solved already, and it is criminal that it keeps coming up again and again. This is simply the result of an overly powerful central bureaucracy, which I feel is the true crux of the problem. The teachers' union is a part of that central bureaucracy, but it isn't anywhere close to the majority player in the drama of the feckless central bureaucracy which is out of touch because it is always in upheaval, and this bureaucracy badly hobbles the individual schools.

    I brought up the Big Three because I believe that they are the model for what will happen with the schools. The legacy providers won't necessarily go away, although some will. Budweiser is still around, and so is United Airlines, but Heileman's and Eastern are spent forces. The landscape has changed, and customer-focused upstarts like Hyundai and Southwest are running rings around bureaucratic operations like GM and US Air. We see it in our own lives. I still support GM, not Hyundai, because I want GM to turn the corner and make it, and I believe that they will. We've decided to buy a new Chevy again when we get around to it. Similarly, I hope that old line operations like the City of Philadelphia in general and the PSD in particular can adapt to the changing world where power comes from the bottom up, and no longer the top down. I see the necessary changes going into place, even in the schools. If you empower people, no matter how supposedly incapable of rational thought you believe that these people are, overall the outcome will still be better than in a Stalinist system, which robs people of their sense of control over their destiny.
    Last edited by billy ross; 02-14-2011 at 06:48 AM.

  8. #88
    knwmn is offline Senior Member
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    Ah yes Billy, had those same thoughts when they deposed the Shah of Iran

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy ross View Post
    I still support GM, not Hyundai, because I want GM to turn the corner and make it, and I believe that they will. We've decided to buy a new Chevy again when we get around to it.
    Doesn't this totally undercut your argument that people will choose what works and abandon that which doesn't? You're going to buy a vastly inferior piece of sh!t based on hope and sentiment. That's not holding anyone's feet to the fire. Congratulations, your ownership society will soon include owning a crap car.

    Similarly, I hope that old line operations like the City of Philadelphia in general and the PSD in particular can adapt to the changing world where power comes from the bottom up, and no longer the top down. I see the necessary changes going into place, even in the schools. If you empower people, no matter how supposedly incapable of rational thought you believe that these people are, overall the outcome will still be better than in a Stalinist system, which robs people of their sense of control over their destiny.
    We have these nifty new things called elections. Maybe you want to read up on them.

 

 

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