liv in lawndale- Cal addressed your post better than I could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinl
I don't think there are enough nuns or brothers left...
It's not that they would run the school entirely--they would simply put the school under their order. Consider LaSalle or St. Joe's: they have members of their order serving in the faculty and staff, but the vast majority are lay workers.
I wonder if the movement to save CD has appealed to a private order?
What relationship does North Catholic have with the Salesians? If they run it under the AD, they could buy it out and run it privately. Has this idea been floated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by caL
My question is why can't an order of nuns or brothers open a school and run it privately for an affordable price? If a religious order is running it/teaching most of the classes, teacher salaries will be marginal. And rather than hook up smart boards - or any computers for that matter - fill the classrooms with desks and books. Get older additions that cost pennies. None of the core subjects have changed. It's unbelievable how much school districts spend on books that contain the same material as the books they replace. Give each teacher some chalk and you got yourself a very low budget, efficient school. Openly tell parents that they will be responsible for teaching their child how to use a computer. What parent wouldn't do that if it cost about $100/month to send your child to Catholic school? I'm dreaming again.
Considering how cheap older additions are, it makes sense. They could probably have a school like St. Joe's or St. Basil's donate their used editions! Let's face it: many of the subjects do not change enough to warrant new textbooks every other year. For the life sciences they will need relatively new books, but for for literature--a classic never dies. Computers they need to have. It's irresponsible for a school to not teach about computers. That being said they could purchase a laptop for each student and incorporate the cost of the laptop into the tuition. In this way they need not waste money constantly updating their own computers, and the students get a laptop to keep as their own. This would actually put them above many other high schools in the technological sense, since most do not provide personal computers.
The church did want to keep it open and pondered ways to make the school viable for several years. The alumni efforts were given their chance, the school was marketed as a technology center and heavily advertised. It didn't work and the Arch was sacrificing at other schools just to maintain the status quo.
To the best of my knowledge the "technology center" was suppose to be a 5 year plan but yet they decided to close the school after just completing 2 years.
It is also my understanding that North had no current debt owed to the archdiocese so I don't see how the archdiocese was sacrificing anything.
To the best of my knowledge the "technology center" was suppose to be a 5 year plan but yet they decided to close the school after just completing 2 years.
It is also my understanding that North had no current debt owed to the archdiocese so I don't see how the archdiocese was sacrificing anything.
Schools like Dougherty, McDevitt, I believe Conwell-Egan were losing faculty each year. It got to the point that sustainable schools (McDevitt) were limited to offering the most basic classes and activities because there were (are) not enough faculty. In the teachers contract, no department head should teach more than 4 classes per day. Some department heads are stuck teaching 6, 7 classes in an 8 period day. There is not enough money/teachers to serve every high school at a competitive level. Several schools are operating below capacity. It is a logical solution to close schools that have seen the sharpest decline in enrollment and are contuining to drop.
I myself have no interest in paying for my child to go to a mediocre Catholic school if a good public or charter school was an option. But if our only choice comes down to the local public school I would seriously consider paying for the Catholic school not so much for the religious education, but for feeling that it would be a 'safer' environment for learning (hopefully).
After attendng CAPA the other day with my nephew, I was surprised to learn that people outside the city can choose to pay tuition to send their children there to the tune of $9,000 a year. And I thought Catholic school tuition was expensive. CAPA has the most tuition paying students in the city.
Schools like Dougherty, McDevitt, I believe Conwell-Egan were losing faculty each year. It got to the point that sustainable schools (McDevitt) were limited to offering the most basic classes and activities because there were (are) not enough faculty. In the teachers contract, no department head should teach more than 4 classes per day. Some department heads are stuck teaching 6, 7 classes in an 8 period day. There is not enough money/teachers to serve every high school at a competitive level. Several schools are operating below capacity. It is a logical solution to close schools that have seen the sharpest decline in enrollment and are contuining to drop.
Even with its "declining enrollment", North's enrollment is about the same as McDevitt's and McDevitt has the advantage (at least in numbers) of being co-ed.
When you break it down, McDevitt has less than 400 boys in their school. If that is sustainable then North is flourishing.
Even with its "declining enrollment", North's enrollment is about the same as McDevitt's and McDevitt has the advantage (at least in numbers) of being co-ed.
When you break it down, McDevitt has less than 400 boys in their school. If that is sustainable then North is flourishing.
With better recruiting and more scholarships/lower tuition, North could have more than 400 students.
Even with its "declining enrollment", North's enrollment is about the same as McDevitt's and McDevitt has the advantage (at least in numbers) of being co-ed.
When you break it down, McDevitt has less than 400 boys in their school. If that is sustainable then North is flourishing.
But McDevitt's enrollment is not 400, its 800. And its holding steady at 800. Give McDevitt added faculty and funding (not to mention students) from the consolidation and you can expand classes and activities. I know McD and North are both below a healthy enrollment level, but in the long run you're better off developing and rejuvenating the school in Wyncote vs the school at Torresdale and Erie.
But McDevitt's enrollment is not 400, its 800. And its holding steady at 800. Give McDevitt added faculty and funding (not to mention students) from the consolidation and you can expand classes and activities. I know McD and North are both below a healthy enrollment level, but in the long run you're better off developing and rejuvenating the school in Wyncote vs the school at Torresdale and Erie.
From a purely monetary standpoint it makes sense to keep McD at the expense of North. But what is the Archdiocesan mission: to make money, or to provide a religious and morally-rooted education to all people in the region? While it proclaims the latter, IMO it has become clear that its primary interest is the former.
If it were up to me I'd let all of the Archdiocesan schools run themselves as they see fit--no AD high school system whatsoever. Instead the schools would all be privately run with AD backing (as in they give approval that the school is Catholic), and in return they give a small portion of all monies back to the AD.
I understand that an update on the Cristo Rey possibility will come out this coming week. Feasability study continues & work groups formed by interested alums created.
But McDevitt's enrollment is not 400, its 800. And its holding steady at 800. Give McDevitt added faculty and funding (not to mention students) from the consolidation and you can expand classes and activities. I know McD and North are both below a healthy enrollment level, but in the long run you're better off developing and rejuvenating the school in Wyncote vs the school at Torresdale and Erie.
I don't ever see McDevitt's numbers going above their current levels. Unlike their inner city AD schools, the area around McDevitt has two very good public schools (Abington & Cheltenham).
McDevitt will continue to get the kids from NW Philly and those who reside in the suburbs and insist on the Catholic education but cannot afford to send their kids to LaSalle which is also less than five minutes away from McDevitt.
North, unlike McDevitt, is very accessible through several means of public transportation.
North also has two buildings available for use. Why not simply move Little Flower from 9th & Luzerne and allow them to occupy the other building at Erie & Torresdale, similarly to what Bonner and Prendergast did a few years back.
The buildings would go from 700 to well over 1500 students and both schools could continue to run independently.
As far as the Cristo Rey project goes, I am hopeful but not optimistic. IMO, the AD does not want the CR project to succeed because if it does (and can do so at a lower cost) it would most certainly take more kids out of the AD and into this independent school.
From a purely monetary standpoint it makes sense to keep McD at the expense of North. But what is the Archdiocesan mission: to make money, or to provide a religious and morally-rooted education to all people in the region? While it proclaims the latter, IMO it has become clear that its primary interest is the former.
If it were up to me I'd let all of the Archdiocesan schools run themselves as they see fit--no AD high school system whatsoever. Instead the schools would all be privately run with AD backing (as in they give approval that the school is Catholic), and in return they give a small portion of all monies back to the AD.
When you say run themselves independent of the AD, you mean like the Prep, Holy Ghost or LaSalle, where tuition is approaching 20K/yr?
The AD does not make money. And they do provide education to all people in the region. And it's easy to complain about tuition, but blame societal factors for raising the price of education to what they are today. The AD offers good education at a price more affordable than any public school or private school in the region. If the 5000/yr tuition isn't within reach, there is assistance through the AD as well as through independent groups that understand the importance of Catholic education, like BLOCS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guv
I don't ever see McDevitt's numbers going above their current levels. Unlike their inner city AD schools, the area around McDevitt has two very good public schools (Abington & Cheltenham).
McDevitt will continue to get the kids from NW Philly and those who reside in the suburbs and insist on the Catholic education but cannot afford to send their kids to LaSalle which is also less than five minutes away from McDevitt.
North, unlike McDevitt, is very accessible through several means of public transportation.
North also has two buildings available for use. Why not simply move Little Flower from 9th & Luzerne and allow them to occupy the other building at Erie & Torresdale, similarly to what Bonner and Prendergast did a few years back.
The buildings would go from 700 to well over 1500 students and both schools could continue to run independently.
As far as the Cristo Rey project goes, I am hopeful but not optimistic. IMO, the AD does not want the CR project to succeed because if it does (and can do so at a lower cost) it would most certainly take more kids out of the AD and into this independent school.
I don't have a problem with the LF idea but I doubt LF would concur.
North may be more accessible than McDevitt via public transit, but it doesn't seem to make a difference in the eyes of parents. McDevitt is in a central location, seving kids from Cheltenham twp, Abington twp, Upper Dublin twp, as well as NW, North and NE Philly. With more faculty and funding, McDevitt will be able to expand its programs and better market itself. I see it leveling off at around 1,000 students.
Hopefully Cristo Rey works out. Apparently 75% of hispanics are Catholic but only 3% attend Catholic schools. This will naturally change as 2nd, 3rd generation hispanics join the middle class like the Irish, Polish and Italians of last century. But to improve that percentage, Notre Dame is working with Catholic dioceses' to market Catholic schools to hispanics with the goal of adding one million hispanic students to Catholic schools.
I don't have a problem with the LF idea but I doubt LF would concur.
The AD has given very little choice to others so why should LF have a choice in this matter? Let's face it simply boils down to the Almighty...Dollar not God.
When you say run themselves independent of the AD, you mean like the Prep, Holy Ghost or LaSalle, where tuition is approaching 20K/yr?
The AD does not make money. And they do provide education to all people in the region. And it's easy to complain about tuition, but blame societal factors for raising the price of education to what they are today. The AD offers good education at a price more affordable than any public school or private school in the region. If the 5000/yr tuition isn't within reach, there is assistance through the AD as well as through independent groups that understand the importance of Catholic education, like BLOCS.
Have you read the Cristo Rei charter? It appears that this high school, a saved North, will be running itself. Should we assume that tuition will skyrocket to $20k/yr? Not every privately run Catholic school charges through the nose, just look at Regis High School in NYC.
Can you show to me a recent audit statement of the AD? I know alcoholics who say they have no money, but its because they waste it all at the bar. If they drank in moderation they'd have enough to afford a respectable living. How do you know that the AD truly has no money--in the sense that it takes in less than it must spend even by the bare minimum necessity? With only historical facts (circa late 1990s) to go by it appears that the AD wastes much more than it puts towards anything Catholic. I have hoped that Cardinal Rigali brought with him the necessary cleanup and change, but right now nobody but those on the inside (ie: who work the books) can know with any certainty.
The organizations you cite do great work, but they are not the AD. Again, what is the AD's mission? Should I just accept the fact that its mission is towards refurbishing mansions and summer villas, and building unnecessary retirement communities meant to serve only a handful of select priests? Have a glance at its official mission statement:
* worship God in spirit and truth through "prayer without ceasing," and particularly through the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments of the Church;
* create and nourish Christian community in the domestic church of the family, in the life of every parish, and in society as a whole;
* proclaim in word and deed the Good News of Jesus Christ to all persons, inviting each of our sisters and brothers in the human community to share our faith and our mission;
* teach the saving message of Christ so that all believers may come to deeper understanding, conversion and personal witness to Christ;
* serve all our sisters and brothers, particularly the poor and needy, by generous acts of charity and by working together with all people of good will for justice and peace.
When I read it, I see providing a Catholic education to the inner cities as much more applicable than the idea of refurbishing a Mainline estate.
The only thing which will clear up this argument is an official outside audit of the AD. The AD has resisted doing this, leaving us with only the late 1990s data to go by.
The AD has given very little choice to others so why should LF have a choice in this matter? Let's face it simply boils down to the Almighty...Dollar not God.
Actually, it boils down to the enrollment numbers (although I guess you could argue that the enrollment numbers equates to dollars). North and CD's yearly enrollment numbers were on an annual steady and consistent decline for the past few (this is probably a conservative estimate) years. Their respective Alumni associations were made aware of the problem and took steps to try to correct them. The schools also took dramatic steps in an effort to change the declining numbers. These efforts were in and of themselves heroic in nature. The technology initiative at North and the intensive scheduling along with the medical profession concentration at CD were part of this effort. Unfortunately, despite the valiant efforts of these schools and their alumni associations these efforts fell short of their mark. The enrollment projections for these schools were terribly bleak. The reason for this tragedy is debatable. But the enrollment numbers don't lie. They are what they are. That is the reason and the only reason the Archdiocese reluctantly came to its decision to close both schools.
Little Flower High School has consistently maintained its enrollment numbers. Each year their incoming freshman class welcome more students than the previous freshman class. Why would someone recommend messing with their success? Little Flower is not broke so why opt to fix it?
There is no guarantee that combining North with Little Flower would yield positive enrollment numbers for the future. As a parent of Little Flower students, both present and future, I submit it would be counter-productive to join the two. The most basic fundamental reason I chose Little Flower for my daughters is because it is a single gender Catholic school. I don't think I am alone in that preference. A merger of these two schools in any fashion would prompt me to find another school for my girls. This is coming from someone who is an avid fan and supporter of Little Flower. Although Little Flower's address in Hunting Park is not the nicest location of high school's within the Archdiocese, its buildings and property are well kept and clean. It has its own ambience! Why, monkey with it? Why would anyone want to?
It is not a matter of Little Flower having any more say in the matter than any other school. It is simply a matter of enrollment numbers. For some reason, again these have been debated also, Little Flower has maintained a positive enrollment while North and Dougherty have not. It really does come down to that. The year to year enrollment of incoming freshman is ultimately the deciding factor in whether to keep the doors open to the school or close them.
Have you read the Cristo Rei charter? It appears that this high school, a saved North, will be running itself. Should we assume that tuition will skyrocket to $20k/yr? Not every privately run Catholic school charges through the nose, just look at Regis High School in NYC.
Cristo Rei is akin to a missionary who's concentration is the inner city. It is perfect for North Philly but is apples and oranges to the AD. Obviously you won't see 20k tuition, it is a missionary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plyfreak
Can you show to me a recent audit statement of the AD? I know alcoholics who say they have no money, but its because they waste it all at the bar. If they drank in moderation they'd have enough to afford a respectable living. How do you know that the AD truly has no money--in the sense that it takes in less than it must spend even by the bare minimum necessity? With only historical facts (circa late 1990s) to go by it appears that the AD wastes much more than it puts towards anything Catholic. I have hoped that Cardinal Rigali brought with him the necessary cleanup and change, but right now nobody but those on the inside (ie: who work the books) can know with any certainty.
The organizations you cite do great work, but they are not the AD. Again, what is the AD's mission? Should I just accept the fact that its mission is towards refurbishing mansions and summer villas, and building unnecessary retirement communities meant to serve only a handful of select priests? Have a glance at its official mission statement:
* worship God in spirit and truth through "prayer without ceasing," and particularly through the celebration of the Eucharist and the other sacraments of the Church;
* create and nourish Christian community in the domestic church of the family, in the life of every parish, and in society as a whole;
* proclaim in word and deed the Good News of Jesus Christ to all persons, inviting each of our sisters and brothers in the human community to share our faith and our mission;
* teach the saving message of Christ so that all believers may come to deeper understanding, conversion and personal witness to Christ;
* serve all our sisters and brothers, particularly the poor and needy, by generous acts of charity and by working together with all people of good will for justice and peace.
When I read it, I see providing a Catholic education to the inner cities as much more applicable than the idea of refurbishing a Mainline estate.
The only thing which will clear up this argument is an official outside audit of the AD. The AD has resisted doing this, leaving us with only the late 1990s data to go by.
The AD is far from perfect like any other lagre governing body. They have property on the mainline that is worth a lot of money, yes. They put money aside to renovate outdated properties, yes, and obviously that money could have gone anywhere else including the schools.
Beyond me saying its not perfectly run, I don't see what is your point. The AD provides Catholic education to 5 counties. With development and demand increasing in the far out burbs, they are building a new school. With demand decreasing in places like Pottstown and North Philly, they are closing schools there. But they are not abandoning anyone. If you live in North, take the BSL to Roman/Hallahan, drive just above Cheltenham Ave to McD, or connect to the MFL and go to West.
Beyond me saying its not perfectly run, I don't see what is your point. The AD provides Catholic education to 5 counties. With development and demand increasing in the far out burbs, they are building a new school. With demand decreasing in places like Pottstown and North Philly, they are closing schools there. But they are not abandoning anyone. If you live in North, take the BSL to Roman/Hallahan, drive just above Cheltenham Ave to McD, or connect to the MFL and go to West.
This is the disagreement: I say they shouldn't be closing schools in needy areas, and you say that due to cost they have no choice.
In the heart of Catholic North Philly, where the population of Catholics has exploded, we should simply close their schools because they can't afford them? The Cristo Rey study will be enlightening because it answers once and for all the most important question: is it money keeping away students, or lack of interest? Certainly, a lack of interest will shutter these schools for good--and also end this thread!
This is the disagreement: I say they shouldn't be closing schools in needy areas, and you say that due to cost they have no choice.
In the heart of Catholic North Philly, where the population of Catholics has exploded, we should simply close their schools because they can't afford them? The Cristo Rey study will be enlightening because it answers once and for all the most important question: is it money keeping away students, or lack of interest? Certainly, a lack of interest will shutter these schools for good--and also end this thread!
Getting financial aid to the poor is a constant issue. Notre Dame is attempting to address the exploding hispanic population you mention. Locally, we have BLOCS, alumni grants and several other forms of aid from the Catholic community.
If we had school vouchers this flaw would take care of itself, as well as help the North Philly folk give their kids an actual education as opposed to enrollment in a zoo. If Republicans were smart - as someone on another thread said - they would point out the utter failure of the democrats to educate low income blacks. Add school vouchers with the social conservatism of many voting blacks and you have to wonder why so many blacks vote democrat at all. That's a tangent. Hopefully, Cristo Rei can break in here.
Getting financial aid to the poor is a constant issue. Notre Dame is attempting to address the exploding hispanic population you mention. Locally, we have BLOCS, alumni grants and several other forms of aid from the Catholic community.
If we had school vouchers this flaw would take care of itself, as well as help the North Philly folk give their kids an actual education as opposed to enrollment in a zoo. If Republicans were smart - as someone on another thread said - they would point out the utter failure of the democrats to educate low income blacks. Add school vouchers with the social conservatism of many voting blacks and you have to wonder why so many blacks vote democrat at all. That's a tangent. Hopefully, Cristo Rei can break in here.
In the places that have used school vouchers, how have they affected the Catholic school systems? I can't believe the Philly teacher's union is strong enough to fight it. Half of them don't even live in the city to affect the elections!
Actually, it boils down to the enrollment numbers (although I guess you could argue that the enrollment numbers equates to dollars). North and CD's yearly enrollment numbers were on an annual steady and consistent decline for the past few (this is probably a conservative estimate) years. Their respective Alumni associations were made aware of the problem and took steps to try to correct them. The schools also took dramatic steps in an effort to change the declining numbers. These efforts were in and of themselves heroic in nature. The technology initiative at North and the intensive scheduling along with the medical profession concentration at CD were part of this effort. Unfortunately, despite the valiant efforts of these schools and their alumni associations these efforts fell short of their mark. The enrollment projections for these schools were terribly bleak. The reason for this tragedy is debatable. But the enrollment numbers don't lie. They are what they are. That is the reason and the only reason the Archdiocese reluctantly came to its decision to close both schools.
Little Flower High School has consistently maintained its enrollment numbers. Each year their incoming freshman class welcome more students than the previous freshman class. Why would someone recommend messing with their success? Little Flower is not broke so why opt to fix it?
There is no guarantee that combining North with Little Flower would yield positive enrollment numbers for the future. As a parent of Little Flower students, both present and future, I submit it would be counter-productive to join the two. The most basic fundamental reason I chose Little Flower for my daughters is because it is a single gender Catholic school. I don't think I am alone in that preference. A merger of these two schools in any fashion would prompt me to find another school for my girls. This is coming from someone who is an avid fan and supporter of Little Flower. Although Little Flower's address in Hunting Park is not the nicest location of high school's within the Archdiocese, its buildings and property are well kept and clean. It has its own ambience! Why, monkey with it? Why would anyone want to?
It is not a matter of Little Flower having any more say in the matter than any other school. It is simply a matter of enrollment numbers. For some reason, again these have been debated also, Little Flower has maintained a positive enrollment while North and Dougherty have not. It really does come down to that. The year to year enrollment of incoming freshman is ultimately the deciding factor in whether to keep the doors open to the school or close them.
Since North has similar numbers to LF, McDevitt, Hallahan, & more than West, why not close all these schools unless it comes down to the size of the building vs its occupancy rate?
Please don't get me wrong, I do not want to see Little Flower close, nor do I necessarily want to see them combine with North. But if part of the reason for closing North (and Dougherty) is because North's two buildings can hold 1700 students why not allow each school to operate side by side (like Bonner & Prendie). It would put LF in a better area with more accessible public transportation and possibly save both schools in the long run.
