"This was Philadelphia's Harlem"

[raider.adam]

We have both at the same time but in most of West and North Philly the continuing flow of middle black people out exceeds the inflow of "urbanists" (predominantly white, but really all races) so much that these areas are still seeing population loss and dropping average income levels. Thats the thing, if the story of white money pushing people out were the main story, you would expect average income to rise, as it is in Center City. But middle class blacks are moving out of North and West so much faster than other people are moving in that Philadelphia's average city wide income level is still dropping, despite Center City's rigorous growth.

Because poor people don't like bad neighborhoods either.

[Naveen]

We have both at the same time but in most of West and North Philly the continuing flow of middle black people out exceeds the inflow of "urbanists" (predominantly white, but really all races) so much that these areas are still seeing population loss and dropping average income levels. Thats the thing, if the story of white money pushing people out were the main story, you would expect average income to rise, as it is in Center City. But middle class blacks are moving out of North and West so much faster than other people are moving in that Philadelphia's average city wide income level is still dropping, despite Center City's rigorous growth.

Because poor people don't like bad neighborhoods either.

But isn't he talking about middle-class people? I agree poor people don't like bad neighborhoods either; they just have less say in where they live.

What I think is worth watching is the effect expanding contiguous areas of economic revitalization have on the city. Philly used to be a city where you couldn't escape poverty. Walk a few blocks in any direction and you were almost bound to hit it (and all the ills associated with that poverty). Now much of "Greater Center City" has been revitalized, and these areas are expanding. Will that create some effect in which people see Philadelphia as a more attractive place to live/work/locate a business? And will that, long-term, help drive down the poverty rate?

And related to that, will increasingly contiguous areas of revitalization change the nature of politics in this city, as councilmembers must contend with constituents they could dismiss in the past? (Specifically, districts 1 through 5, and perhaps 6 and 8).

[billy ross]

I, too, must say that I only recently learnt that the Great Migration's extended duration. I also envisioned the 1920s as the peak of the Great Migration- but more migrants came in the 1940s and even 1950s than did in the 1920s. I think the reason that the 20s are depicted as the peak because it is easy to romanticize the close-knit, class-integrated black neighborhoods of the Harlem Renaissance era than the rapidly expanding, internally collapsing black neighborhoods of the 50s and 60s. As has been pointed out, the availability of suburbs for white families who wanted out, and the slow hacking away at legal segregation allowed for upwardly mobile black families to leave their poor peers behind as they moved to the seeming paradise of places like West Oak Lane, East Mount Airy, Wynnefield, etc, while their peers' only upwardly mobile move would be into a rapidly vacating, almost equally decrepit, white neighborhood across the street. And yes, contrary to what FKD's mom thought, many of the declining white neighborhoods were practically slums by the time blacks, and then Puerto Ricans, arrived.

I don't think that all, or even most, of the Southern migrants were trashy. But there certainly was an advantage held by the longer-tenured Northern black families, as they had arrived in a time of ample employment and already had a generation of higher-quality Northern schooling under their belt.

You're kidding yourself with the 'almost equally decrepit white neighborhood' nonsense and 'practically slums' claptrap. Even today the neighborhoods which recently 'used to' be white are (like Oxford Circle) are in markedly better condition than the neighborhood the ghetto leaves in its wake, and this has always been the case. Generally poor to middle class whites take much better care of their neighborhoods than blacks do - just look at South Philly east of Broad versus west of Broad, Port Richmond versus two miles due west, etc, because of many reasons, among which are the facts that whites tend to be more likely to be skilled workers than blacks do (at least in the machinist / mechanic tradition), and whites tend to be more financially literate than blacks are (even at the upper income levels, still) and thus much less likely to get in over their heads financially.

You can still see the change at Lehigh Avenue in the 20's, 45 years after the whites left. The area south of Lehigh has been black longer, and it is in much worse condition. Houses don't fail as soon as blacks move in. It takes decades of neglect for a house to fall apart, especially a house which has been maintained in excellent condition for decades up to a certain point. This is not to say that no black person knows how to keep their house up - even in the ghettoes you'll see houses here and there which are maintained in excellent condition. However, those tend to be the exception rather than the rule. In addition, in white neighborhoods people are more willing to be investors than in black neighborhoods. I think this is because the vast majority of investors are white, and there are just too many stories about white investors/business owners getting murdered in the ghettoes, so when houses go derelict due to fires or neglect in a white neighborhood, there is a highly functioning market which will bring that house back to snuff and prevent it from become a block-ruining eyesore, generally speaking, while that mechanism isn't nearly as efficient in the black neighborhoods. Combine the lack of maintenance in black neighborhoods with the paucity of investors willing to deal with the tidal wave of unmaintained homes in the ghetto and you get dramatically differering conditions of the housing stock between white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods of the same vintage and with the same original housing stock. This explains all of the vacant lots at 15th below Temple, as opposed to the lack of vacant lots in the traditionally white parts of South Philly. One final caveat - due to blacks' general relative lack of handiness and relative lack of interest in fixing up their homes, the houses in the ghettoes tend to be more original than in the white neighborhoods, which periodically get freshened up. That's what makes places like Germantown such treasure troves of original features - noone bothered to fix them up during the years when people were doing awful things to their homes in white neighborhoods, and demolition by neglect, while bad, isn't nearly as bad as active demolition. A friend of mine who was involved in rehabbing Powelton Village pointed this out to me. As stylish as black culture and black people generally are, they seem to be much more willing to leave their houses in original condition than white people are, especially the South Philly Italians.

[raider.adam]

But isn't he talking about middle-class people? I agree poor people don't like bad neighborhoods either; they just have less say in where they live.

From 1990-2000 most of the areas around Temple had over a 15% drop in population. I believe a lot of that trend continued in 2000-2010 (I can't seem to find the 2010 maps). I honestly can't believe that there was that much middle class there to say most of those numbers are middle class migration. It's a lot of poor people fleeing as well.

[seand]

From 1990-2000 most of the areas around Temple had over a 15% drop in population. I believe a lot of that trend continued in 2000-2010 (I can't seem to find the 2010 maps). I honestly can't believe that there was that much middle class there to say most of those numbers are middle class migration. It's a lot of poor people fleeing as well.

Where you draw the line between middle and poor is something people sometimes debate and I don't know the census data for say people below the federal poverty line. Perhaps I should have phrased it "black people who can afford to move out are continuing to do so, dropping the population smaller and also making it poorer on average" and left the descriptives off.

[seand]

As stylish as black culture and black people generally are, they seem to be much more willing to leave their houses in original condition than white people are, especially the South Philly Italians.

Oh my goodness, stereotypes galore. Black folks do their share of popcorn ceilings too but its true aesthetically there is some appreciation or at least a different appreciation for nice "old" architecture. Actually this reminded me of an extraoridnary piece of wall paper a friend of mine found in a house in West Philly. It was from the 70s, kind of a faux historical pattern with an African American nuclear family in full colonial gear standing in front of Independence Hall. I mean I know that Richard Allen and others were running around in colonial era Philadelphia but it was an amazing cultural artifact as a piece of mass produced wall paper. I wish I had taken a picture as an interesting piece of cultural ephemera.

[MariusPontmercy]

Where you draw the line between middle and poor is something people sometimes debate and I don't know the census data for say people below the federal poverty line. Perhaps I should have phrased it "black people who can afford to move out are continuing to do so, dropping the population smaller and also making it poorer on average" and left the descriptives off.

It's also generational turnover. A lot of young mothers are fleeing because they're concerned for the safety of their children. Whenever they do a story on a shooting in the hood and there's an interview with one of them its always the same thing: they all want to, or are in the process of moving out. I think its many of the older residents that own their homes that are staying put if anyone is really staying put at all. More so than the younger ones that generally don't own.

[raider.adam]

Where you draw the line between middle and poor is something people sometimes debate and I don't know the census data for say people below the federal poverty line. Perhaps I should have phrased it "black people who can afford to move out are continuing to do so, dropping the population smaller and also making it poorer on average" and left the descriptives off.

Yes, the people with means are leaving (but I wager most of those are already gone). I am merely saying, even those that really can't afford to move are moving also.

[Naveen]

It's also generational turnover. A lot of young mothers are fleeing because they're concerned for the safety of their children. Whenever they do a story on a shooting in the hood and there's an interview with one of them its always the same thing: they all want to, or are in the process of moving out. I think its many of the older residents that own their homes that are staying put if anyone is really staying put at all. More so than the younger ones that generally don't own.

That's interesting. I'd love to see stats on that if there are any. If the younger are fleeing, leaving on the older, well, I can't imagine the older are exactly the people involved in illict activities. So, those committing the crimes are also likely to "flee" as well, as the market for, say, the drug trade evaporates. This leaves an old, poor population, which would push up the city's % of poor, but also leave these areas more open to revitalization. Of course, only if what you're saying is true beyond anecdotes.

[seand]

That's interesting. I'd love to see stats on that if there are any. If the younger are fleeing, leaving on the older, well, I can't imagine the older are exactly the people involved in illict activities. So, those committing the crimes are also likely to "flee" as well, as the market for, say, the drug trade evaporates. This leaves an old, poor population, which would push up the city's % of poor, but also leave these areas more open to revitalization. Of course, only if what you're saying is true beyond anecdotes.

That is in part what seems to be happening. There is sometimes another phenomena, however, where the more stable, together siblings currently residing in more stable neighborhoods decide to let the sibling with substance abuse problem and the drug dealer boyfriend live in Grandma's old house, where you end up with the people with the most problems in terms of behavior residing in the entirely paid-off but also deemed "not worth selling" house. Speaking anecdotaly.

Crack houses have to come from somewhere and anecdotaly, a lot seem to be inherited from a recently deceased relative.

[thoth]

Tom Ferrick credited this trend with the overall reduction in gun crime.

An Uncomfortable Truth - Metropolis

Gun crime is disproportionately committed by young black men, young black men as a group are decreasing within the city limits, so gun crime also decreases. As he says, it's an uncomfortable concept, but does seem more plausible than buying into the idea that the PPD is actually able to do anything about the overall crime rate.

That's interesting. I'd love to see stats on that if there are any. If the younger are fleeing, leaving on the older, well, I can't imagine the older are exactly the people involved in illict activities. So, those committing the crimes are also likely to "flee" as well, as the market for, say, the drug trade evaporates. This leaves an old, poor population, which would push up the city's % of poor, but also leave these areas more open to revitalization. Of course, only if what you're saying is true beyond anecdotes.

[jazzsinger59]

Nice try but I waste of time, to go there with these folks,they will call you a troll lol.If it is not pro
gentrified they do not want to hear it.Along with hipsters and other things lol.

[jazzsinger59]

Hum and who has been doing the shooting lately
A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones

[seand]

Nice try but I waste of time, to go there with these folks,they will call you a troll lol.If it is not pro
gentrified they do not want to hear it.Along with hipsters and other things lol.

Who are you talking to, exactly?

[Smooth Sailor]

Hum and who has been doing the shooting lately
A Guide to Mass Shootings in America | Mother Jones

Thanks for sharing. So white guys are behind the shootings in Colorado and Wisconsin.

Who has been doing all of the shooting in North Philly?

[seand]

If your family member has been shot, I'm not sure it matters that much if it was because of one crazy white guy's twisted ideology or if it was a shootout between two idiots warring over drug turf, indiscriminately taking out innocents who happen to get in their way. They've been shot for someone else's stupidity, either way.

[Sharkfood]

If your family member has been shot, I'm not sure it matters that much if it was because of one crazy white guy's twisted ideology or if it was a shootout between two idiots warring over drug turf, indiscriminately taking out innocents who happen to get in their way. They've been shot for someone else's stupidity, either way.

I probably know 15 or so black guys who live in or are from bad Philadelphia neighborhoods. 2 of them lost their sons to gunfire this year -- one was in ok corral bar shooting. It's unfortunately a fact of life in certain circles.

[Sharkfood]

That is in part what seems to be happening. There is sometimes another phenomena, however, where the more stable, together siblings currently residing in more stable neighborhoods decide to let the sibling with substance abuse problem and the drug dealer boyfriend live in Grandma's old house, where you end up with the people with the most problems in terms of behavior residing in the entirely paid-off but also deemed "not worth selling" house. Speaking anecdotaly.

Crack houses have to come from somewhere and anecdotaly, a lot seem to be inherited from a recently deceased relative.

Yep I've seen this on a few occasions. All the more reason to send some of these tax delinquent jewels to sheriff's sale.

[Sharkfood]

It's also generational turnover. A lot of young mothers are fleeing because they're concerned for the safety of their children. Whenever they do a story on a shooting in the hood and there's an interview with one of them its always the same thing: they all want to, or are in the process of moving out. I think its many of the older residents that own their homes that are staying put if anyone is really staying put at all. More so than the younger ones that generally don't own.

What you'll find in an area like cobbs creek, for example, is a large number of senior citizen homeowners who come from respectable backgrounds. However, as these homeowners die off, there is no new generation of young black homebuyers to take their place. The young black homebuyers are in yeadon, northern Delaware, Atlanta, northeast Philly, basically anywhere but the old hood. So when the senior generation dies, either the house is sold to an investor who probably rents it section 8 or it is inherited and the kid with the heavy drug problem moves in.