The Divine Lorraine project lives

**eldondre** · 12-16-2008, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by billyorss

For example, the GC of the Divine Lorraine job told me that the owner has a similar job going on in another city, and once that is done they will do the Divine Lorraine, with a large addition on the vacant lot next door.

http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...97-post36.html

Didn't know where to post this since it borders spring garden and francisville (and poplar) but is also in north philly. if so, this is big news. I've noticed that most of the new places that were built have been sold. anyone have more info?

**billy ross** · 12-16-2008, 04:51 PM

Talk is cheap, but supposedly the owner is a deep-pocketed investor (I want to say a Dutch Pension Fund, but my memory is fuzzy). I never did find out what the other project was, or where.

**bryson662001** · 02-15-2009, 12:48 PM

It may live but it has no future. The only people who would want to live there are innocent, young liberal students who could never afford to pay what it will cost to rehab the place. By the time they are old enough to have the money they will know better then to invest it there. (unless they turn it into an SRO, but certainly not luxory condos)

**five apples** · 02-15-2009, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by bryson662001

It may live but it has no future. The only people who would want to live there are innocent, young liberal students who could never afford to pay what it will cost to rehab the place. By the time they are old enough to have the money they will know better then to invest it there. (unless they turn it into an SRO, but certainly not luxory condos)

If my memory serves me right it was going to be affordable, that was the whole concept. As to rentals or condos I can not recall.

**jet3to** · 02-15-2009, 01:13 PM

Temple has no room fot jr/sr.Only fresh & Soph on campus.Developers get state funding for this usage.

**ArcticSplash** · 02-15-2009, 01:37 PM

North Philadelphia rents average in the $200-$500 range depending on the size, type of building, whether or not the landlord/slumlord bothered to renovate it, etc.

Those who have some means and are going to Temple are not going to mind going budget for a $700/mo property because it sits on top of the subway and the C runs right past it 24 hours. I've been around that location at night before. It's fairly quiet even for being close to Center City and it faces a highway. The higher up in the building, the quieter it will be. I would imagine there's a lot less vagrancy around the DL than even in Rittenhouse because panhandlers flock to places where there's lots of pedestrians. That part of Broad is fairly quiet at all hours of the day.

If the developer reconfigures the property appropriately so the tenants feel safe while inside (outside it is pretty safe there during the daytime... but not at night), then if I were a temple undergrad I certainly would not mind living there and I would prefer to live there and get a larger space and some breathing room rather than pay over a thousand a month for a box just 3 subway stops further south.

Temple has a sizeable population of foreign-born students who are less knowledgeable about where to life and just might go with that option. If you make the place nice, you can command higher rents.

As for luxury condos---that is totally out of the picture. I wouldn't lend any money to a developer if they were going to reconfigure the DL to condos---who the eff would want to own property in North Philadelphia, especially there, unless they were doing it to capture rental income?

**eldondre** · 02-15-2009, 02:19 PM

They also wouln't get financing for condos in this market. I'm not so down on the location. Really, the divine Lorraine project is like the naval home. Once it's renovated, the whole character of the intersection will change. If osteria can pack em in two blocks south, the divine can expect to command rents just shy of 640. I'd pay 1000 to 1500 to live there if the places aredecent. If the supermarket gets built, forget about it. It'll change quickly. People said the same stuff about northern liberties as well

**raider.adam** · 02-15-2009, 02:31 PM

The original plan was condos geared towards young professionals: those a couple years out of college and in the workforce.

The location is not bad. Just a couple blocks south Blatstein is renovating the state office building into residences. Mormons are building a new temple across from it. 640 seems to be doing well enough. It is on a major public transit location (super convenient even if you work in University City ... BSL to EL) with BSL, C bus and the 61 (you can take a bus to old city or manayunk). You are also a 15-20 minute walk to the Fairmount restaurant strip as well.

Add in additional housing in the vacant lots behind it and you will see a bunch of retail popup around it. That section of ridge also leads

Drawbacks of the location are the men's home across the street on ridge and the fact you would be the first jumping into the area.

As for financing - financing for condo development is not non existent - they just have higher expectations of pre-sales before handing over the money.

The Divine Lorrain would be a wonderful project (I can't say how profitable since I have no idea the amount of abatement they need to do). The trick is that government and the neighborhood has to get out of its way and let someone dump money into the neighborhood and redevelop.

**hammersklavier** · 02-15-2009, 02:34 PM

If it's a Temple-affiliated project (like University Village and the Edge at Ave North) then I'd imagine they'd be able to get some serious subsidies--esp. if, as with the Edge, Temple can use the place for dorm overflow. For some time now I've been advocating that Temple (or affiliations) can convert these rundown derelictions that foul up half of North Broad's major intersections into, say, dorm housing or grad housing. It would certainly lessen Temple's severe housing crisis, and of course school could charge slightly different housing fees for different dorms, in concert with those dorms' preexistent demand. Loft-style living (as in Botany 500) would, I think, command even more demand among incoming Temple students than would suites (as in what Temple DL may be or 1300 currently is). Besides, using Beury to house Med School students and Botany 500 and the DL Main Campus overflow makes a good deal of sense, especially if Temple and SEPTA issued passes to all Temple dormers.

**raider.adam** · 02-15-2009, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

If it's a Temple-affiliated project (like University Village and the Edge at Ave North) then I'd imagine they'd be able to get some serious subsidies--esp. if, as with the Edge, Temple can use the place for dorm overflow. For some time now I've been advocating that Temple (or affiliations) can convert these rundown derelictions that foul up half of North Broad's major intersections into, say, dorm housing or grad housing. It would certainly lessen Temple's severe housing crisis, and of course school could charge slightly different housing fees for different dorms, in concert with those dorms' preexistent demand. Loft-style living (as in Botany 500) would, I think, command even more demand among incoming Temple students than would suites (as in what Temple DL may be or 1300 currently is). Besides, using Beury to house Med School students and Botany 500 and the DL Main Campus overflow makes a good deal of sense, especially if Temple and SEPTA issued passes to all Temple dormers.

No, it is not a Temple project.

**ArcticSplash** · 02-15-2009, 02:54 PM

Northern Liberties was re-created during the biggest real estate boom ever seen in this country since Levittown and suburbia was invented.

If you've followed any of the major players in the REIT markets, their stocks have taken a punishing hit, even for office REITs.

There is only one development market in Philly that is still good, and it was good before the condos came here, and that is rental [of all flavors].

Mind you, before 2004 there wasn't that much interest for major condo developments here in town (I would consider gutting and re-doing the DL a major project).

That said, we are VERY lucky living here. Philly metro housing prices have only dropped 6% on average [worse in some areas, better in others]. Some areas that are overinflated out in the suburbs are crashing, and the downturn here in the city is nothing, nothing like the super-hyped areas in Florida and California.

Imagine what Philly would be like with a San-Jose-esque price crash of 35%. It would be nuts!

My only worry about the local housing market are the peeps who all bought up the Option ARM products and Alt-As. These types of loans were very popular here (especially in Fishtown and NoLibs).

These products hit their reset peaks in 2010.

Originally Posted by raider.adam

The original plan was condos geared towards young professionals: those a couple years out of college and in the workforce.

The location is not bad. Just a couple blocks south Blatstein is renovating the state office building into residences. Mormons are building a new temple across from it. 640 seems to be doing well enough. It is on a major public transit location (super convenient even if you work in University City ... BSL to EL) with BSL, C bus and the 61 (you can take a bus to old city or manayunk). You are also a 15-20 minute walk to the Fairmount restaurant strip as well.

Add in additional housing in the vacant lots behind it and you will see a bunch of retail popup around it. That section of ridge also leads

Drawbacks of the location are the men's home across the street on ridge and the fact you would be the first jumping into the area.

As for financing - financing for condo development is not non existent - they just have higher expectations of pre-sales before handing over the money.

The Divine Lorrain would be a wonderful project (I can't say how profitable since I have no idea the amount of abatement they need to do). The trick is that government and the neighborhood has to get out of its way and let someone dump money into the neighborhood and redevelop.

**Brooke** · 02-15-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

They also wouln't get financing for condos in this market. I'm not so down on the location. Really, the divine Lorraine project is like the naval home. Once it's renovated, the whole character of the intersection will change. If osteria can pack em in two blocks south, the divine can expect to command rents just shy of 640. I'd pay 1000 to 1500 to live there if the places aredecent. If the supermarket gets built, forget about it. It'll change quickly. People said the same stuff about northern liberties as well

I totally agree. I'd be really psyched to see this project move forward. Did anyone else take a tour? The problem is that each room was really small and the plans at the time of demo were to combine two rooms...which makes for a really, really small footprint. A lot of the cool, original features were demoed or sold as well.

However, I think the train access is totally key right there. I think a young professional just out of college is going to choose that area for its proximity to the Art Museum and CC over a place like Chinatown or the Loft District.

**eldondre** · 02-15-2009, 04:20 PM

hey meat, bring on the price decreases. Bring on moderate rentals.
I caught some temple students urinating on pnc (broad and ridge) last night so I can't day I'm in love with the idea of student housing, there's plenty of room to build by temple. In fact, it might be better for temple in the long run to concentrate building at the core of its campus around broad st rather than sprinkle students around. Broad and lehigh needs more than student housing, perhaps a KOZ designation and regular stops on Amtrak's Keystone service. the Buery building is probably a good fit though. anyways, I imagine the DL views are incredible. I wish they'd target working people rather than students but I suppose students are better than nothing.

**raider.adam** · 02-15-2009, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

hey meat, bring on the price decreases. Bring on moderate rentals.
I caught some temple students urinating on pnc (broad and ridge) last night so I can't day I'm in love with the idea of student housing, there's plenty of room to build by temple. In fact, it might be better for temple in the long run to concentrate building at the core of its campus around broad st rather than sprinkle students around. Broad and lehigh needs more than student housing, perhaps a KOZ designation and regular stops on Amtrak's Keystone service. the Buery building is probably a good fit though. anyways, I imagine the DL views are incredible. I wish they'd target working people rather than students but I suppose students are better than nothing.

Again, DL was targeting young professionals, not temple students. Unless someone has a source somewhere that it has changed.

**Malloy** · 02-16-2009, 12:16 AM

This is from 06:

Divine Lorraine sold once again; condos planned | Philadelphia Inquirer, The | Find Articles at BNET

...The new owners intend to convert the hotel into entry-level-priced condos for city residents and college students, Jonathan Stavin, a vice president with CB Richard Ellis Inc., who sold the property, said yesterday.

**Brooke** · 02-16-2009, 09:48 AM

We both win! Well hey, Hancock Square in No. Libs rents to that mix and they command some really high rents (more than 4 times my mortgage for the one I was in) and the units are insulated enough seemingly to cut down on a lot of the noise.

**raider.adam** · 02-16-2009, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Malloy

This is from 06:

Divine Lorraine sold once again; condos planned | Philadelphia Inquirer, The | Find Articles at BNET

Bah. That is a crappy change of scope then, but doesn't make sense.

How many college students can afford to buy condos?

**eldondre** · 02-16-2009, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Bah. That is a crappy change of scope then, but doesn't make sense.

How many college students can afford to buy condos?

that's from 06, I'll be surprised if they haven't already switched to rentals.

**Malloy** · 02-16-2009, 11:29 AM

I couldn't find it, but I swore the latest article said it was going to be rentals.

**desolate** · 02-16-2009, 12:50 PM

I'd still feel like this living there.

No close stores. Can't really walk around outside of your place at night.

Having Police Cameras at the next major intersection also would give you a pause.

It does suit Temple.

Many a Temple kid I know/knew gave up on living near campus and live in Fairmount and Fishtown and train/bike it.