Atlantic City: New Jersey's abused whore

[lewblum]

Gambling is a failed experiment in AC. After 35 years, it's still a sh*thole. it really is a tale of 2 cities like the mayor said.

It needs to be reinvented as a family beach destination, just like all the other 100 successful communities that line the coast.

[mixiboi]

Gambling is a failed experiment in AC. After 35 years, it's still a sh*thole. it really is a tale of 2 cities like the mayor said.

It needs to be reinvented as a family beach destination, just like all the other 100 successful communities that line the coast.

Kinda too late for that. Its not like we are talking about one casino on the edge of the Boardwalk, the ENTIRE boardwalk is a casino...

[y.lama]

Kinda too late for that. Its not like we are talking about one casino on the edge of the Boardwalk, the ENTIRE boardwalk is a casino...

yeah definitely - it's never going to be like an Ocean City NJ. Best hope would be a Ocean City MD situation, with high rise condos on the beach.

Here's my solution - not an easy solution b/c it's not an easy problem:
Make the southern end of the town into a town like OCMD. Change the Tropicana and Hilton into condos or hotel (how? I don't know b/c obviously they are privately owned). The chelsea hotel is already down there with some other existing high rises, not to mention some in Ventnor.

Maybe build a "wall" at Boardwalk Hall (around Georgia Ave) in the form of a park or something that will elimatec crosstown traffic to seperate AC South and AC North/Gambling district. At the very least don't allow any strip clubs and other seedy joints south of said dividing line. A wall or something that eliminates crosstown traffic would also be good because it wouldn't allow people from the beach towns south of AC to take roads such as Atlantic and Paciffic to the casinos thereby making these roads parking lots every weekend night in the summer - I can't stress how important this is no one wants to live or vacation in near that much traffic. This would force people from OCNJ and towns south to take the parkway or route 9 to the expressway (if the parkway can't handle the traffic add an extra lane). Also complete the interchange from 332 to the AC expressway so that the people living/vacationing in Ventnor and AC South could go to the casinos. If built correctly it may be quicker to take 322 and do a U turn onto AC expressway than dealing with the current traffic jam on Atlantic and Pacific. People coming to AC south would take the existing 322 exit whereas folks coming to gamble would take the expressway to midtown or marina.

If they did build a physical "wall" in the form of a park there would need to be a cut through for police, fire and ambulances to get from one side of town to the other unless they had their own or Ventnor annexed AC South. In case you were wondering AC south would have about 1.65 miles of beachfront (from Jackson to Boardwalk hall) whereas AC north/gambling district would have 1.7miles (boardwalk hall to the end of the island). Obviously AC north has more width and therefore more square feet... tons of other questions/problems I can think of but this is just a rough conceptual idea.

This kind of goes with my previous post that I think one of the biggest mistakes in AC was spreading the casinos out thereby making the areas in the middle desolate. If they grouped them together it would have been easier to create the "tourism district" they are now trying to do as well as making it possible to have the rest of the island be a regular beach town like an extension of Ventnor...but to echo mixiboi "kinda too late for that".

[hammersklavier]

I like the general idea of where you're going with that, but I would choose to focus condo-building activity in the north end of the city instead, where the glut of vacant land is.

[y.lama]

I like the general idea of where you're going with that, but I would choose to focus condo-building activity in the north end of the city instead, where the glut of vacant land is.

yeah that would be great too - my only question is that I don't know how many people would want to own, rent, or stay at a hotel in a non casino building in the dirty seedy casino district. Your right though that there is a TON of vacant land up there, the need to figure out something.

My idea focused mostly on the south because it seems the easiest to fix. The analogy I see in my head is a dirty leak coming from the north if they can block the leak the south could clean up pretty quick. This may also benefit AC North because they could consolidate all of the "dirty things" in one area. The property values in AC South would go up (taxes collected by AC would go up) - maybe you don't need any additional highrise condos in the south, maybe it would almost be an extension of Ventnor. No more hookers outside the Tropicana, no more strip clubs south of Boardwalk Hall. Definitely need to reduce the number of surface lots, fill in with houses.

Also, I was thinking how difficult it would be for the Trop and Hilton to change from casinos and then thought - why do they even need to? They might benefit from being the only 2 casinos in AC south, and they may benefit from being the only 2 casinos in a nice area (if the rest of my plan goes through and succeeds) where you can walk the streets and feel like your in a nice shore town. I think it would be important to see if Hard Rock would build there casino somewhere in AC North as opposed to becoming the southern most casino at the end of the Black Horse Pike.

AC South - a quiet, clean, vacation town where you can gamble
AC North - a loud, bright light, gambling destination

[hammersklavier]

There might be something to that. As it stands, right now AC seems like a caricature of a city: gambling halls, the Boardwalk, and a CBD made up of a massive premium-outlets complex...who lives in AC? Only those with no other choice. Cities need the life of citizenry to live and breathe. AC today is essentially a strip mall with an almost-urban feel--something's definitely missing there.

[eldondre]

well, I just spent a couple of days in AC and it's apparent the casinos are killing that town...along with just idiotic spending on worthless things like the abandoned baseball stadium. The casinos have completely subjugated the city and made it their driveway and parking lot...along with their supporting businesses like cash for gold, check cashing, and strip clubs. The casinos also kill the boardwalk. there's some life to the boardwalk but as often as not there is some crap chain place, or worse, some empty restaurant taking up several storefronts worth of space. in a healthy boardwalk it would go out of business but since it's a casino, the restaurant is an afterthought, as is the beach. we stayed at trump plaza, itself dated and tacky. you can't get from your car in the garage to the hotel without going through the casino if you use the pedestrian walkway. this forces you to street level where the casino has clearly designed everything with cars in mind forcing you to walk a block past unpatrolled casino property full of people down on their luck.
what is right about AC? the beach is decent and it's much easier to get a room across from it than most shore towns. the tropicana clearly has gotten something right as the quarter was slammed...as was their casino. it's really a fascinating mix in the "there's something for everyone" kind of way. there are chain restaurants, bars, a take out wine and beer shop, an upscale food market, shopping, an IMAX theater, etc, etc...all done in an interesting way (with a cuban theme). heck, there was even a place with the phils game on. contrast this with trump taj majal, an ugly, stinky, maze of a place. we went to find the hidden white house...there was just something wrong about the white house in that crappy location. (indeed, I might wonder if the best immediate action for AC is to ban trump who just lost control of the faded marina (golden nugget). anyway, we ate in the okay glichrist's in gardner's basin but the area itself (gardner's basin) was quiet, with small scale housing like you'd find in other shore towns with a couple good restaurants (gilchrists's, scales, and the back bay ale house). boat tours launch from here and some semblance of a fishing industry though sadly you can't actually eat the catch at the nearby restaurants. obviously the white house is an institution, if someone could convince the formica bakery across the street to serve better coffee, that too could be a great spot. at least one mexican restaurant has taken residence next to the often packed white house. this area is in the thick of it all and even before the walk, was a good bit less dilapidated. one thing a casino has done recently that seems to have mostly worked is harry's. bally's has renovated the oldest portion of their hotel (the denny) restoring a courtyard and having a local institution (the owners of the local oyster house) open a restaurant instead of some crap chain. set off the boardwalk, it was pleasant (except the second time we visited, they had a too loud band playing outside ruining what should have been a byootiful night outside). it was relaxing and the food was good....serving what you'd expect at the beach, fresh seafood. they even had a few good beers, though the tap list was still a little crappy. I could see the seating area doubling in size during summer months into the rest of the courtyard if its successful. hopefully others take note...the denny rents for more than trump plaza. and if you're in the mood to escape the heat, catch a phils game, and have a few pins, ducktown tavern is a decent place (though it still hsom unrealized potential). so what does AC have going for it? lower prices, convenience (70 minutes from center city), the beach, and a few institutions. I don't necessarily think strip clubs need to be banned, but it wouldn't hurt if the advertisements were a bit more subtle. streetscapes definitely need to be less car centric and prettier...treating the entire town as a driveway to the casinos, and they need to encourage small businesses like the white house, tony baloney's, etc. I think the future is the beach but also small businesses and rather than bringing national chains, bringing the best of their big markets...philadelphia and ny, as well as adding its own touch (basically, restoring what was...not in a physical sense ). two things it could do without: trump and blaring music at every turn, particularly on the beach. what's wrong with ocean sounds? even the boat ride we took at unnecessary blaring music. turn it off! it's tacky. on the whole though, we'd go back if the price was right, and certainly for a daytrip. it saves 20 min in each direction of ocean city, which I never particularly cared for anyway though it definitely has a better boardwalk, for what it is. cape may is still probably the prettiest town but ac was never that, it's a city.
one last thing: transportation. in ac's heyday it was a 45 min ride or so by train, it's not much longer than that. the city should concentrate on shortening the trip and electrifying it. indeed, it probably makes a lot of sense for a high speed rail test bed for the same reasons trains were able to run so fast a hundred years ago. ideally, a train ride from philly to ac should be less than 20 minutes. this probably should have been a higher priority than the riverline IMO.

[hammersklavier]

To add: the Bay Head Line used to run all the way down the Shore and could also be extended. It may not be express in the same sense the NEC/ACL would be, but it would be a more direct route from NY to AC. Express and local trains would thus converge and terminate, turning it into a terminal.

A major key would seem to be redevelopment of AC's north half, which has eroded to the point of Detroit-scale urban prairie. It is quite possibly the best blank slate of land for redevelopment anywhere in the Northeast.

[y.lama]

To add: the Bay Head Line used to run all the way down the Shore and could also be extended. It may not be express in the same sense the NEC/ACL would be, but it would be a more direct route from NY to AC. Express and local trains would thus converge and terminate, turning it into a terminal.

A major key would seem to be redevelopment of AC's north half, which has eroded to the point of Detroit-scale urban prairie. It is quite possibly the best blank slate of land for redevelopment anywhere in the Northeast.

yeah, the almost 3 hour train ride now from NY to AC is too long.

I still think if they somehow were able to outlaw and remove all strip clubs and cash for gold (i.e. seedy businesses) south of Boardwalk Hall that neighborhood (Chelsea) would become a very desirable family vacation destination. This is also assuming all of the empty lots south of Boardwalk Hall were developed with typical shore housing (or at least high rise condos). It would be just like similar to the other shore towns with atlantic and pacific having the inland shopping and a boardwalk. The fact that there is tall buildings (casinos and existing/future high rise condos) blocking the beach isn't 100% desirable to me but not any different than OCMD. Also the trop already has a lot of stuff for families (shopping, IMAX, Carmines...etc) and the Hilton could easily add some.

I really would like to see a road built where the Bader Field runway is connecting the Black Horse and ACE so that Atlantic and Pacific aren't gridlock during the summer. This road wouldn't stop any development of Bader Field and would probable help it (a smart solution would be to have a proposed condo building over the road to cover it). I know businesses on Atlantic and Pacific prefer tons of slow traffic down their street but what happens there during the summer is detrimental to the whole neighborhood. Businesses would end up being better off if more people wanted to vacation nearby and the average income of the clientele went up.

As for the north - it may have been a good idea for all of the Marina Casinos to go there but too late now. Now it may be best to just relocate all of the strip clubs from the south up there and cash in on the Revel. Also, it may be controversial to say this but if the south becomes a lot more desirable and vacationers start scooping up those homes, some people living down there now may relocate to the north side of town.

[mixiboi]

Tropicana Adds Gambling To Shopping Area

Because they needed more slots in that place:

The casino got approval Friday from the state Division of Gaming Enforcement for a pilot program with 11 slot machines and two electronic table games. It hopes to eventually have 100 to 125 slots and live table games in The Quarter.

The machines should be up and running by Thanksgiving.

[mixiboi]

And the Sports betting passed:


New Jersey 1-Expand AC Wagering Amendment

Yes
64.7%(VOTES: 578410)

No
35.3%(VOTES: 315692)


Now to see if they can win the battle against the federal government and the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB.

Meanwhile the first NYC casino open:

CNN.com - New York City welcomes first casino

and the PA casinos are stealing NJ money:

N.J. gamblers heading to Pa. casinos in increasing numbers | NJ.com

[desolate]

well, I just spent a couple of days in AC and it's apparent the casinos are killing that town...along with just idiotic spending on worthless things like the abandoned baseball stadium. The casinos have completely subjugated the city and made it their driveway and parking lot...along with their supporting businesses like cash for gold, check cashing, and strip clubs. The casinos also kill the boardwalk. there's some life to the boardwalk but as often as not there is some crap chain place, or worse, some empty restaurant taking up several storefronts worth of space. in a healthy boardwalk it would go out of business but since it's a casino, the restaurant is an afterthought, as is the beach. we stayed at trump plaza, itself dated and tacky. you can't get from your car in the garage to the hotel without going through the casino if you use the pedestrian walkway. this forces you to street level where the casino has clearly designed everything with cars in mind forcing you to walk a block past unpatrolled casino property full of people down on their luck.
what is right about AC? the beach is decent and it's much easier to get a room across from it than most shore towns. the tropicana clearly has gotten something right as the quarter was slammed...as was their casino. it's really a fascinating mix in the "there's something for everyone" kind of way. there are chain restaurants, bars, a take out wine and beer shop, an upscale food market, shopping, an IMAX theater, etc, etc...all done in an interesting way (with a cuban theme). heck, there was even a place with the phils game on. contrast this with trump taj majal, an ugly, stinky, maze of a place. we went to find the hidden white house...there was just something wrong about the white house in that crappy location. (indeed, I might wonder if the best immediate action for AC is to ban trump who just lost control of the faded marina (golden nugget). anyway, we ate in the okay glichrist's in gardner's basin but the area itself (gardner's basin) was quiet, with small scale housing like you'd find in other shore towns with a couple good restaurants (gilchrists's, scales, and the back bay ale house). boat tours launch from here and some semblance of a fishing industry though sadly you can't actually eat the catch at the nearby restaurants. obviously the white house is an institution, if someone could convince the formica bakery across the street to serve better coffee, that too could be a great spot. at least one mexican restaurant has taken residence next to the often packed white house. this area is in the thick of it all and even before the walk, was a good bit less dilapidated. one thing a casino has done recently that seems to have mostly worked is harry's. bally's has renovated the oldest portion of their hotel (the denny) restoring a courtyard and having a local institution (the owners of the local oyster house) open a restaurant instead of some crap chain. set off the boardwalk, it was pleasant (except the second time we visited, they had a too loud band playing outside ruining what should have been a byootiful night outside). it was relaxing and the food was good....serving what you'd expect at the beach, fresh seafood. they even had a few good beers, though the tap list was still a little crappy. I could see the seating area doubling in size during summer months into the rest of the courtyard if its successful. hopefully others take note...the denny rents for more than trump plaza. and if you're in the mood to escape the heat, catch a phils game, and have a few pins, ducktown tavern is a decent place (though it still hsom unrealized potential). so what does AC have going for it? lower prices, convenience (70 minutes from center city), the beach, and a few institutions. I don't necessarily think strip clubs need to be banned, but it wouldn't hurt if the advertisements were a bit more subtle. streetscapes definitely need to be less car centric and prettier...treating the entire town as a driveway to the casinos, and they need to encourage small businesses like the white house, tony baloney's, etc. I think the future is the beach but also small businesses and rather than bringing national chains, bringing the best of their big markets...philadelphia and ny, as well as adding its own touch (basically, restoring what was...not in a physical sense ). two things it could do without: trump and blaring music at every turn, particularly on the beach. what's wrong with ocean sounds? even the boat ride we took at unnecessary blaring music. turn it off! it's tacky. on the whole though, we'd go back if the price was right, and certainly for a daytrip. it saves 20 min in each direction of ocean city, which I never particularly cared for anyway though it definitely has a better boardwalk, for what it is. cape may is still probably the prettiest town but ac was never that, it's a city.
one last thing: transportation. in ac's heyday it was a 45 min ride or so by train, it's not much longer than that. the city should concentrate on shortening the trip and electrifying it. indeed, it probably makes a lot of sense for a high speed rail test bed for the same reasons trains were able to run so fast a hundred years ago. ideally, a train ride from philly to ac should be less than 20 minutes. this probably should have been a higher priority than the riverline IMO.

you do understand that before the casinos.

It just looked like that minus the casinos.

It was Camden on the beach.

Why do you think they LEGALIZED gambling?

It wasn't "Baordwalk Empire" it was "Asbury Park"

only a much larger version of Asbury with a substantial government subsidized population.

Most of those people that live there work because of the casinos.


I know you think removing them will cause AC to turn into some kind of resort.

Explain you're casinoless AC and how it would work.

[eldondre]

you do understand that before the casinos.
It just looked like that minus the casinos.

not so sure about that, I've seen pictures from before the casinos. it's worse now. heck, camden is worse now.

Why do you think they LEGALIZED gambling?

to try, unsuccessfully I might add, to revive AC which had been losing marketshare to florida and the carribean due to air travel.

Most of those people that live there work because of the casinos.

I don't think this is true, for years AC residents have complained that the casinos mostly hire people that don't live there.

I know you think removing them will cause AC to turn into some kind of resort.

turning AC into a beach resort is the only way to bring it back. I don't think you have to remove the casinos to do that.
you should think for a moment, it might help you. you seem to think AC's only hope is casinos yet casinos have done little to nothing for AC. the fact is AC was and will need to be again, a beach town. it can be a beach town with 24 hour bars and gambling, but beach town it will have to be. it's telling that most people flew to vegas rather than do their gambling in AC.

[mixiboi]

Oh look what Atlantic City is copying:




I guess that is what happens when you have the same developer....

[mixiboi]

Q & A: David S. Cordish | Q & A: David S. Cordish | Casino Connection Atlantic City

Could you tell us about Phase IV?

We’ve had a lot of impetus put to us by the state, by major gaming companies here, by the CRDA’s Tom Carver, who’s got a vision. They want us to do something different in Phase IV that can help to round out the mix of things that attract people to Atlantic City.
We’ve given them shopping, and we’re going to give them more shopping. While we have some entertainment in Phases I, II and III, it’s not the focus. In Phase IV, it will be the focus, and very little retail.
We’re very good at it. We’ve copyrighted and patented the Live! District concept, where we congregate a great deal of entertainment around a public plaza that is free—entertainment which we also program. You invite people, and it becomes a living room of the community. We’ve done it all over the United States. The full mix of this particular Live! district, which we’re just beginning to think about, will be different for us.

Will there be a lot of individual clubs in addition to the community-based entertainment center?

Yes. It will be an unbelievable variety of live entertainment and individual clubs, running the gamut from comedy to jazz to dueling pianos to nightclubs. It’s everything you could think of. And we’re also starting to solicit input on a major attraction that in and of itself will draw people to Atlantic City, to the Live! District and to the Walk.

[John Goodman]

I want to get a place in AC. Places are cheap and I like the idea of getting to the shore without a car. The beaches really aren't that bad.

AC is so sleazy at this point, I think the answer is to market it to hipsters. Get the indie music circuit to come to town and market directly to NY/Philly hipsters looking for a cheap vacation.

[D-man]

I want to get a place in AC. Places are cheap and I like the idea of getting to the shore without a car. The beaches really aren't that bad.

My wife and I were thinking the same thing. You can get a condo at the Ritz Carlton, on the boardwalk, for $75k. The beaches in AC are just fine. Some of the beach bars are pretty cool, too. I heard through the grapevine that a multi-million dollar makeover of the Steel Pier is planned.

[mixiboi]

They don't know what they want to do with the Steel Pier....

[desolate]

not so sure about that, I've seen pictures from before the casinos. it's worse now. heck, camden is worse now.

to try, unsuccessfully I might add, to revive AC which had been losing marketshare to florida and the carribean due to air travel.


I don't think this is true, for years AC residents have complained that the casinos mostly hire people that don't live there.


turning AC into a beach resort is the only way to bring it back. I don't think you have to remove the casinos to do that.
you should think for a moment, it might help you. you seem to think AC's only hope is casinos yet casinos have done little to nothing for AC. the fact is AC was and will need to be again, a beach town. it can be a beach town with 24 hour bars and gambling, but beach town it will have to be. it's telling that most people flew to vegas rather than do their gambling in AC.

Realistically, the state doesn't really care. It gets more from the casinos than it would "rebuilding" AC to attract who? No jobs bro. Why live there 24/7? Really, think about WHY you would live there.

Philly "fixed" itself because out of all things there was a way to earn a living here.

Removing the casinos would be removing the only employer.

So how would removing the #1 employer "help"?

[eldondre]

Realistically, the state doesn't really care. It gets more from the casinos than it would "rebuilding" AC to attract who? No jobs bro. Why live there 24/7? Really, think about WHY you would live there.

Philly "fixed" itself because out of all things there was a way to earn a living here.

Removing the casinos would be removing the only employer.

So how would removing the #1 employer "help"?

the casinos aren't growing, ac has no future unless it becomes a beach town. you used to be able to live at the beach and work at campbell's soup or even in downtown philly. that's ac's future, gambling is part of a failed attempt at revitalization