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  1. #1
    FIGHT BACK is offline Member
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    Default For profit medicine is killing seniors

    I posted a Blog about my experience in talking care of my mom. I know some people will say "I don't believe it, that doesn't happen here, it's a conspiracy theory," well folks, the only people that would say that are people that just find it hard to let go of their illusions, to accept the truth,for to do so...is very painful. There is comfort in lies. Let me know about your experiences with the Doctors of Death. read the blog, click the link. fightback2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT BACK View Post
    I posted a Blog about my experience in talking care of my mom. I know some people will say "I don't believe it, that doesn't happen here, it's a conspiracy theory," well folks, the only people that would say that are people that just find it hard to let go of their illusions, to accept the truth,for to do so...is very painful. There is comfort in lies. Let me know about your experiences with the Doctors of Death. read the blog, click the link. fightback2013
    I'm sorry about your loss. It does sound like your mother (and you and your siblings) got sloppy care. Primary care physicians need to be more on the ball about managing treatment for their patients, that means consulting with specialists, taking that information back to the patient and family members and making decisions accordingly. Unfortunately, in the hectic modern medical system that coordination doesn't always happen the way it should.

    In your mother's case it sounds like what was thought to be diverticulitis was in fact early stage cancer, however it is also just as likely that the diverticulitis was present and masked the cancerous growth that was simultaneously going on. Not all cancer is so easily detected and very often there can be complicating factors that throw off a proper and timely diagnosis. At the very least she should have had a colonoscopy to closely check the area of the affected bowel (maybe she did, I just didn't see it menti0oned in your blog post).

    I do take issue with your notion that seniors are somehow being targeted for reduced or poorer quality of care. This is where your blog post seems to veer off into conspiracy theory territory. The sad fact about our healthcare system is that care of the elderly in their last year of life represents somewhere around 30% of the entire Medicare budget. That's a staggering amount of money being spent on people who end up dying a few months after all the expensive care. This says two things: One, that we are clearly not ignoring the elderly and their care as they approach the end of life, and 2, that we need to have a rational and sensitive discussion about how much we can and are willing to do for very ill, elderly patients given the fact that the Baby Boom generation is retiring/aging and will be dying in great numbers over the next couple of decades.

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    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT BACK View Post
    I posted a Blog about my experience in talking care of my mom. I know some people will say "I don't believe it, that doesn't happen here, it's a conspiracy theory," well folks, the only people that would say that are people that just find it hard to let go of their illusions, to accept the truth,for to do so...is very painful. There is comfort in lies. Let me know about your experiences with the Doctors of Death. read the blog, click the link. fightback2013
    Before I read your Marxist gobbledyggok ... do you think it would make sense to use paragraph breaks?

    Per the title of your piece; if we rid ourselves of Capitalist medicine what incentive do highly intelligent people have to go into medicine?

    What incentive do corporations and individuals have in developing lifesaving medicine, lifesaving and/or life-changing medical devices, etc, etc?

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    FIGHT BACK is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Before I read your Marxist gobbledyggok ... do you think it would make sense to use paragraph breaks?

    Per the title of your piece; if we rid ourselves of Capitalist medicine what incentive do highly intelligent people have to go into medicine?

    What incentive do corporations and individuals have in developing lifesaving medicine, lifesaving and/or life-changing medical devices, etc, etc?






    Well, Nick, i'm sorry that all the comments made by the Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, the Senior Advocate were all just simply ignored. As was said in the beginning of the blog, I expected it, it is easier for one to hold onto ones illusions because the truth is a very painful thing to accept.

    As far as you comment on "incentives", i'll tell you where it would come from, the same dedication that other Medical Professionals have in other industrialized Countries with a national health care system, dedication to their fellow citizens and the health and well-being of society. Now I know that concept is hard to grasp here in narcissistic America.
    Last edited by FIGHT BACK; 01-09-2013 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Before I read your Marxist gobbledyggok ... do you think it would make sense to use paragraph breaks?

    Per the title of your piece; if we rid ourselves of Capitalist medicine what incentive do highly intelligent people have to go into medicine?

    What incentive do corporations and individuals have in developing lifesaving medicine, lifesaving and/or life-changing medical devices, etc, etc?






    Well, Nick, i'm sorry that all over the comments made by the Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, the Senior Advocate were all just simply ignored. As was said in the beginning of the blog, I expected, it is easier for one to have onto ones illusions because the truth is a very painful thing to accept.

    As far as you comment on "incentives", i'll tell you where it would come from, the same dedication that other Medical Professionals have in other industrialized Countries with a national health care system, dedication to their fellow citizens and the health and well-being of society. Now I know that concept is hard to grasp here in America.

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    boognish is online now Senior Member
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    Something else that seems hard to grasp here in America is just how expensive college+med school+residency is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Before I read your Marxist gobbledyggok ... do you think it would make sense to use paragraph breaks?

    Per the title of your piece; if we rid ourselves of Capitalist medicine what incentive do highly intelligent people have to go into medicine?

    What incentive do corporations and individuals have in developing lifesaving medicine, lifesaving and/or life-changing medical devices, etc, etc?
    You should have read his "marxist gobbledyggok" before shooting your mouth off, because the post not so much about the evils of for-profit healthcare as much as it is about the fact that the guy and his family experienced some confused and impersonal treatment at the hands of a healthcare system increasingly unmoored from its mission because of costs, technology, and public expectations.

    That being said, the notion that life saving drugs and medical treatment would not be possible if we weren't turning a profit off of the care of sick people is utterly countered by the fact that the practice and innovation of medicine also thrives in almost every other developed nation where they do not.

    Physicians don't treat people or save their lives because they think there's a profit to be made in doing so. Sure, they like to earn income like every other living person on the face of the earth, but your simplistic and inaccurate breakdown of the economics of medicine in this country is just that; simplistic and inaccurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT BACK View Post
    As far as you comment on "incentives", i'll tell you where it would come from, the same dedication that other Medical Professionals have in other industrialized Countries with a national health care system, dedication to their fellow citizens and the health and well-being of society. Now I know that concept is hard to grasp here in America.
    No, it's just hard to grasp for infantile libertarians who like to pretend the world's complex problems can be solved by slogans, utterly unrealistic "solutions" and unchecked selfishness.

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    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Both of you realize that Americas free market medicine GAVE these industrial countries around the globe the top medicines, technologies, procedures, etc; don't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Both of you realize that Americas free market medicine GAVE these industrial countries around the globe the top medicines, technologies, procedures, etc; don't you?




    Nick, I really do not wish to go back and forth with you, because you have your mind made up. You are one of these people where facts, infomation mean nothing. I can and have proved through the personal experiences of pople in the profession, that everything I stated is true.

    Are you saying that Wendell Potter is lying? the Nurses are lying? the Lawyers are lying? I'm I lying in regards to my conversations with the Doctors who admitted to me as to why they lied about my mom having cancer? all of which you glossed over and just reduced everything to a debate on socialism. It is up to you to prove that it isn't true.

    By the way, Germany passed a national health care bill for it's people in 1883, England 1911 which they maintained through 2 world wars when their economy and infranstructure was destroyed. Even very poor areas of the world like Peru, Costa Rica, Cuba who, by the way, makes their own Pharmaceuticals, India, even Mexico, who has thousands of seniors crossing the boarder yearly, to take advantage of their low cost health care, which is free to their citizens.

    So, if they can do it, why can't we? Do you know that R&D, 90% of which is paid for by the tax payer. So you are paying twice, once to develop the Drugs and a second time to purchase it. Nice!!!!!
    Last edited by FIGHT BACK; 01-09-2013 at 01:18 PM.

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    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT BACK View Post
    Nick, I really do not wish to go back and forth with you, because you have your mind made up. You are one of these people where facts, infomation mean nothing. I can and have proved through the personal experiences of pople in the profession, that everythiong I stated is true.

    Are you saying that Wendell Potter is lying? the Nurses are lying? the Lawyers are lying? I'm I lying in regards to my conversations with the Doctors who admitted to lying to me about my mom having cancer? all of which you glossed over and just reduced everything to a debate on socialism.

    By the way, Germany passed a national health care bill for it's people in 1883, England 1911 which they maintained through 2 world wars when their economy and infranstructure was destroyed. Even very poor areas of the world like Peru, Costa Rica, Cuba who, by the way, makes their own Pharmaceuticals, India, even Mexico, who has thousands of seniors crossing the boarder yearly, to take advantage of their low cost health care, which is free to their citizens.
    Lol @ 'free' but that is an economic discussion .. Lollerskates: I ride them every time a leftist talks about Fin/Econ and claims something is free.

    Per the countries that you are comparing to our ex=free-market medical system; Where do you think they got most (not all) of their medical technology, procedure techniques, medicines, etc, from?




    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT BACK View Post
    So, if they can do it, why can't we? Do you know that R&D, 90% of which is paid for by the tax payer. So you are paying twice, once to develop the Drugs and a second time to purchase it. Nice!!!!!
    Do you actually think it is intelligent to have the government involved in any type of medical industry R&D?

    FYI .. the "second' time you are paying a profit but you probably believe that that adds and unfair, unnecessary cost to the medical industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Both of you realize that Americas free market medicine GAVE these industrial countries around the globe the top medicines, technologies, procedures, etc; don't you?
    Countless drugs and technologies used in this country are manufactured by German, French and English pharmaceutical and medical equipment companies who are perfectly able to turn a profit despite the fact that these countries have single payer government healthcare for the actual administration of care. Those countries also benefit from countless drugs and devices developed and manufactured here. It's called commerce.

    You're talking out of your ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Do you actually think it is intelligent to have the government involved in any type of medical industry R&D?
    Works in plenty of other countries to great effect. Anyway, what do you think NIH grants are, money from the healthcare fairies?
    Last edited by EdMundo; 01-09-2013 at 02:38 PM.

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    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdMundo View Post
    Countless drugs and technologies used in this country are manufactured by German, French and English pharmaceutical and medical equipment companies who are perfectly able to turn a profit despite the fact that these countries have single payer government healthcare for the actual administration of care. Those countries also benefit from countless drugs and devices developed and manufactured here. It's called commerce.

    You're talking out of your ass.
    I said most but I must chuckle at comparing England, France, and Germany to some extent, to our pharma and medical technology industry. What's next ... are you going to claim that these countries are financially healthy and do a wonderful job protecting themselves militarily? The planners in those countries can't even stabalize their economies (social welfare state) with the American empire protecting and paying the bill of their defense.

    Can I have economic slug for $500 Alex?

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    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Do you actually think it is intelligent to have the government involved in any type of medical industry R&D?
    Quote Originally Posted by EdMundo View Post
    Works in plenty of other countries to great effect. Anyway, what do you think NIH grants are, money from the healthcare fairies?
    Just more economic failure on your part .. see my post #14.

    What makes you think I, or any sane individual who has a grasp on the notion of freedom and liberty, advocates for an agency like National Institute of Health?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    I said most but I must chuckle at comparing England, France, and Germany to some extent, to our pharma and medical technology industry. What's next ... are you going to claim that these countries are financially healthy and do a wonderful job protecting themselves militarily? The planners in those countries can't even stabalize their economies (social welfare state) with the American empire protecting and paying the bill of their defense.

    Can I have economic slug for $500 Alex?
    Just can't stop f*cking that chicken, can you?

    5 of the top 10 most profitable pharmaceutical companies in the world are of European origin.

    And, no, this doesn't have anything to do with military expenditures and defense capabilities. Tell me, what exactly is the US military actively protecting them from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Just more economic failure on your part .. see my post #14.

    What makes you think I, or any sane individual who has a grasp on the notion of freedom and liberty, advocates for an agency like National Institute of Health?
    Your notion of freedom and liberty seems to be at the level of a seven year old

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Just more economic failure on your part .. see my post #14.

    What makes you think I, or any sane individual who has a grasp on the notion of freedom and liberty, advocates for an agency like National Institute of Health?
    Your notion of freedom and liberty seems to be at the level of a seven year old. Have another bong hit and watch your greatest hits of Ron Paul video again.

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    So you both are making the argument that we need hcare to live/survive and the industry should not have a profit motive and be free for all. For arguments sake I accept that and claim you both are right.

    We need food to live/survive. Should the entire industry remove the profit motive and provide food to all, for free? We could start with the actual producers to the re-sellers and retailers. That is who it would work, no?

    Also; if we take it out of medicine why not take the profit motive out of higher education? There is a large % of people in this country who can’t afford higher education and their families can’t as well because it just costs to much. We should also go in the direction as well, no? How can one expect a doctor to pay off his/her student debt of $100’sK considering their practice will be non-profit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    So you both are making the argument that we need hcare to live/survive and the industry should not have a profit motive and be free for all. For arguments sake I accept that and claim you both are right.

    We need food to live/survive. Should the entire industry remove the profit motive and provide food to all, for free? We could start with the actual producers to the re-sellers and retailers. That is who it would work, no?

    Also; if we take it out of medicine why not take the profit motive out of higher education? There is a large % of people in this country who can’t afford higher education and their families can’t as well because it just costs to much. We should also go in the direction as well, no? How can one expect a doctor to pay off his/her student debt of $100’sK considering their practice will be non-profit.
    You can't possibly be that dumb. No one is saying that people shouldn't make incomes/salaries and you yourself "LOLed" at the notion that anything is actually free.

    I have no problem with pharmaceutical companies making profits off of much needed and expensive to develop drugs, I have no problem with device companies making a profit off of much needed and miraculous medical devices and equipment. I do have a problem with hospitals and hospital systems making a profit off of the care of sick and dying people. There's a place for private, for-profit care for people who want to pay more for cadillac care or pay for face-lifts, etc., but the notion that all care delivered should be for profit is morally repugnant. Profit is not needed to drive excellence, profit is not needed to drive safety measures and profit is not needed to attract talent. That can be seen in almost every other developed country.

    All for-profit care provision does is succeed in concentrating talent and safety and excellence in the few institutions that can afford to attract it and pay for it. Leaving a radical disparity between urban and rural care.

 

 

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