When $76K Per Year + 16% Pay Raise Isn't Enough to Teach ...

**NickTheCage** · 09-10-2012, 12:57 PM

You strike!

Chicago teachers strike for first time in 25 years - Chicago Sun-Times

Chicago Bled Dry by Striking Teachers’ Unions - By John Fund - The Corner - National Review Online

**NJbound** · 09-10-2012, 01:00 PM

Terrible. Greed..

**hkp** · 09-10-2012, 01:03 PM

They rejected a 16% increase! **** them.

**NickTheCage** · 09-10-2012, 01:19 PM

Chicago teachers have the highest average salary of any city at $76,000 a year before benefits. The average family in the city only earns $47,000 a year. Yet the teachers rejected a 16 percent salary increase over four years at a time when most families are not getting any raises or are looking for work.

... lulz

**enyo** · 09-10-2012, 01:21 PM

According to Forbes, the teachers are striking over evaluations based on how well their students do. I wouldn't want to lose my job over students that don't think its cool to
apply themselves at all. If that's the real reason I can't blame them.

**FKD19124** · 09-10-2012, 01:23 PM

this is why unions have surpassed their usefulness.

Originally Posted by NickTheCage

You strike!

Chicago teachers strike for first time in 25 years - Chicago Sun-Times

Chicago Bled Dry by Striking Teachers’ Unions - By John Fund - The Corner - National Review Online

**Sean** · 09-10-2012, 01:39 PM

The 16% is actually over four years, so I assume it is about a 5% a year increase for three years, which is still quite high but not quite the headline grabber that 16% is.

In the end it is the kids who lose out which is really the sad part.

**BarryG** · 09-10-2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by enyo

According to Forbes, the teachers are striking over evaluations based on how well their students do. I wouldn't want to lose my job over students that don't think its cool to
apply themselves at all. If that's the real reason I can't blame them.

Teachers are very special and teaching is a very special field. Unlike every other profession in the modern world, there is no fair way to evaluate the effectiveness of teachers. The fact is that once hired, every teacher has the same effectiveness, commensurate with the number of years they work and their age, so they should earn raises without evaluation. Since teaching effectiveness is independent from the individual characteristics of any given educator, it is important that we protect their jobs though a tenure system because any attempt to terminate a teacher is most likely a politically-motivated witch hunt. The claims by the school district and city of an impossible to bridge deficit is a ruse because the 1% is very wealthy and (most) teachers are part of the 99%. Furthermore, teachers are often expected to finish paperwork outside of normal school hours. Taking work home is already an unfair burden so educators should be compensated for any additional classroom time required by their administrators. Don't forget that even though teachers get approximately 12 weeks of paid vacation and accumulating personal days, some of them read periodicals and books about their profession during this vacation time for which they are not compensated at all!

This is the reason I support teachers' unions.

**rjj** · 09-10-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

Taking work home is already an unfair burden so educators should be compensated for any additional classroom time required by their administrators. Don't forget that even though teachers get approximately 12 weeks of paid vacation and accumulating personal days, some of them read periodicals and books about their profession during this vacation time for which they are not compensated at all!

This is the reason I support teachers' unions.

you kidding with this garbage arent you? tell me one job out there today where people can maintain a high level without finishing paperwork, researching and reading on their own time.

if your good at what you do and wish to maintain that level, your pro-active in making yourself better on your own time.

find me one quality service tech that isnt constantly reading online forums for new techniques for their trade....... find me a sales person who isnt up finishing paper work hours after their 10 hour grind is finished....

what a joke.

send Christie out there.

**toxigal** · 09-10-2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by rjj

you kidding with this garbage arent you? tell me one job out there today where people can maintain a high level without finishing paperwork, researching and reading on their own time.

if your good at what you do and wish to maintain that level, your pro-active in making yourself better on your own time.

find me one quality service tech that isnt constantly reading online forums for new techniques for their trade....... find me a sales person who isnt up finishing paper work hours after their 10 hour grind is finished....

what a joke.

send Christie out there.

i'm pretty sure Barry was being facetious, but i'd like to introduce myself. Hello, my name is toxigal and I rarely do work on my own time. i put in more than 8 hours "at the desk" to make up for wasted time online and at the water cooler, but i would say over the year i probably average 40-45 hours a week. while i'm probably unique to my field (i'm not a big go-getter, i'm very happy not being #1), i'm not unique at my place of employment. They greatly value personal time and encourage us to not take work home with us.

**FKD19124** · 09-10-2012, 08:02 PM

I dont think I have ever gotten a %5 increase.

Originally Posted by Sean

The 16% is actually over four years, so I assume it is about a 5% a year increase for three years, which is still quite high but not quite the headline grabber that 16% is.

In the end it is the kids who lose out which is really the sad part.

**Bixbyte** · 09-10-2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

Teachers are very special and teaching is a very special field. Unlike every other profession in the modern world, there is no fair way to evaluate the effectiveness of teachers. The fact is that once hired, every teacher has the same effectiveness, commensurate with the number of years they work and their age, so they should earn raises without evaluation. Since teaching effectiveness is independent from the individual characteristics of any given educator, it is important that we protect their jobs though a tenure system because any attempt to terminate a teacher is most likely a politically-motivated witch hunt. The claims by the school district and city of an impossible to bridge deficit is a ruse because the 1% is very wealthy and (most) teachers are part of the 99%. Furthermore, teachers are often expected to finish paperwork outside of normal school hours. Taking work home is already an unfair burden so educators should be compensated for any additional classroom time required by their administrators. Don't forget that even though teachers get approximately 12 weeks of paid vacation and accumulating personal days, some of them read periodicals and books about their profession during this vacation time for which they are not compensated at all!

This is the reason I support teachers' unions.

______________________________________

Burger Flippers are more than very special.
If you say anything demeaning they might spit in your food.
While, Modern teachers do not have the same teaching skills as their predecessors.
Alas, Bush changed (ruined) our education system.
Now Teachers must teach students how to take the tests.
This compromises the artistic talents of a true teacher.
The teaching system is broken.
We have cookie cutter teachers.
Might as well hire $5 hour babysitters, they are nearly as capable.
Once a students has the tests accomplished they graduate to become another cookie cutter.
But, you lack all the unique talents that are gained if the educational system is qualified by more than tests.
Sorry if my opinions offend you.

**enyo** · 09-10-2012, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

Teachers are very special and teaching is a very special field. Unlike every other profession in the modern world, there is no fair way to evaluate the effectiveness of teachers. The fact is that once hired, every teacher has the same effectiveness, commensurate with the number of years they work and their age, so they should earn raises without evaluation. Since teaching effectiveness is independent from the individual characteristics of any given educator, it is important that we protect their jobs though a tenure system because any attempt to terminate a teacher is most likely a politically-motivated witch hunt. The claims by the school district and city of an impossible to bridge deficit is a ruse because the 1% is very wealthy and (most) teachers are part of the 99%. Furthermore, teachers are often expected to finish paperwork outside of normal school hours. Taking work home is already an unfair burden so educators should be compensated for any additional classroom time required by their administrators. Don't forget that even though teachers get approximately 12 weeks of paid vacation and accumulating personal days, some of them read periodicals and books about their profession during this vacation time for which they are not compensated at all!

This is the reason I support teachers' unions.

I hear you. They should be held accountable to a degree, but the parents are accountable as well and at a certain age the kids have to be accountable for themselves. By the same token, if two or three of the kids f&ck around, why should the teachers take time away from the kids who take school seriously?

**BarryG** · 09-10-2012, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bixbyte

______________________________________

Burger Flippers are more than very special.
If you say anything demeaning they might spit in your food.
While, Modern teachers do not have the same teaching skills as their predecessors.
Alas, Bush changed (ruined) our education system.
Now Teachers must teach students how to take the tests.
This compromises the artistic talents of a true teacher.
The teaching system is broken.
We have cookie cutter teachers.
Might as well hire $5 hour babysitters, they are nearly as capable.
Once a students has the tests accomplished they graduate to become another cookie cutter.
But, you lack all the unique talents that are gained if the educational system is qualified by more than tests.
Sorry if my opinions offend you.

If Teaching is an art, why do the teachers unions structure their contracts like they are interchangeable cogs, like industrial workers?

They asked to be treated this way, by pushing for LIFO hiring, seniority based pay and placement, accounting for every hour, etc

**rjj** · 09-11-2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by toxigal

i'm pretty sure Barry was being facetious, but i'd like to introduce myself. Hello, my name is toxigal and I rarely do work on my own time. i put in more than 8 hours "at the desk" to make up for wasted time online and at the water cooler, but i would say over the year i probably average 40-45 hours a week. while i'm probably unique to my field (i'm not a big go-getter, i'm very happy not being #1), i'm not unique at my place of employment. They greatly value personal time and encourage us to not take work home with us.

I'm happy that arrangement works out well for you. i guess my point is irrelelvant to those who are content being and remaining average. technology is changing so fast, its impossible to think you can remain exactly where you are today without falling behind. my office also values personal time away from work, but everyone acknowledges the need to pro actively evolve in their position. most do this on their own time, above and well beyond what the office has budgeted for continued learning credits.

whats the old saying? no one ever stays the same, if you are not getting better you are getting .......

**toxigal** · 09-11-2012, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by rjj

I'm happy that arrangement works out well for you. i guess my point is irrelelvant to those who are content being and remaining average. technology is changing so fast, its impossible to think you can remain exactly where you are today without falling behind. my office also values personal time away from work, but everyone acknowledges the need to pro actively evolve in their position. most do this on their own time, above and well beyond what the office has budgeted for continued learning credits.

whats the old saying? no one ever stays the same, if you are not getting better you are getting .......

I certainly have learned and progressed in my career. But i am lucky enough to be at a company that allows ample time for continuing education, both internal and through attending conferences. I am able to learn and grow and evolve without sucking up my personal time. my point was simply that not every job requires someone to put in a lot of "off the clock" work. I know plenty of people with successful careers who don't.

My personal experience was that my mother (a teacher) did considerably more work at home than my father (Training program coordinator for Three Mile Island) ever did. The times my dad had a lot of stuff to do at home was when he was teaching one of the training courses and had to grade papers off the clock.

I don't know what the answer is with respect to teachers. obviously there has to be a way to evaluate their effectiveness so that bad teachers can get the appropriate training or be replaced with successful teachers. but i do think teachers, in general, take a lot more work home with them than other professionals and that should not be ignored or brushed aside.

**seand** · 09-11-2012, 10:35 AM

Teachers should be paid well. They have an incredibly demanding and important job. That said, its very reasonable that taxpayers are going to ask for a connection between quantifiable success in the class room and increased salary. And before we get into the whole, "tests can never truly measure education" blah-blah-blah. Yeah sure thats right but try try telling that US military who rely heavily on aptitude tests and all those colleges with their pesky things, what do they call it, oh yeah SAT's. Temp agencies and job placement firms routinely test as well to see if you have skills you claim to have.

Everywhere in the real world standardized tests are used all the time to determine if people have acquired a required skills to do X, Y, or Z. But somehow schools are magically different.

**seand** · 09-11-2012, 10:46 AM

Now changing gears to some truly bizarre and entertaining political Kabuki.

Paul Ryan on Chicago teachers strike: ‘We stand with Rahm Emanuel’

Its because Rahm is a secret Republican, no doubt.

**NickTheCage** · 09-11-2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by seand

Now changing gears to some truly bizarre and entertaining political Kabuki.

Paul Ryan on Chicago teachers strike: ‘We stand with Rahm Emanuel’

Its because Rahm is a secret Republican, no doubt.

This is what happens when you, and the entire republican party, thinks the race is getting away from their candidate. Hug a Dem mayor in a 'crisis' and give interviews extolling the virtues of obamacare.

**rjj** · 09-11-2012, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by toxigal

I certainly have learned and progressed in my career. But i am lucky enough to be at a company that allows ample time for continuing education, both internal and through attending conferences. I am able to learn and grow and evolve without sucking up my personal time. my point was simply that not every job requires someone to put in a lot of "off the clock" work. I know plenty of people with successful careers who don't.

My personal experience was that my mother (a teacher) did considerably more work at home than my father (Training program coordinator for Three Mile Island) ever did. The times my dad had a lot of stuff to do at home was when he was teaching one of the training courses and had to grade papers off the clock.

I don't know what the answer is with respect to teachers. obviously there has to be a way to evaluate their effectiveness so that bad teachers can get the appropriate training or be replaced with successful teachers. but i do think teachers, in general, take a lot more work home with them than other professionals and that should not be ignored or brushed aside.

i dont disagree with any of that. teachers have a very difficult job. evaluating them is even more of a challenge. parents are less and less accountable for their kids every day. makes teachers jobs increasingly difficult. if my parents didnt crack my a$$ everytime i acted like an idiot in school, i cant imagine how difficult it would have been to teach me.

now parents want to blame everyone else for their kids issues.