Asian-Americans are the largest immigrant group, not Hispanics: Pew Research

[phillyaggie]

A lot of great stats in this article:

Asian-Americans, more than Latinos, are largest group of new arrivals in U.S. – In America - CNN.com Blogs

Notice that Asian-Americans also tend to vote Democratic, even after all the stats might lead you to believe they would vote Republican. Makes me think the Republican Party has an image problem... perhaps it needs to widen its tent by ditching some stupid social/class issues.

[OffenseTaken]

And the more who make their homes in Philadelphia, the better! Of course, it's likely that the city will only encourage the opposite (the SPHS affair, etc.).

Notice that Asian-Americans also tend to vote Democratic, even after all the stats might lead you to believe they would vote Republican. Makes me think the Republican Party has an image problem... perhaps it needs to widen its tent by ditching some stupid social/class issues.

We could have said the same thing about Irish- and Italian-Americans fifty years ago, when the Republicans were still the party of starch-collar Protestants. But then look what happened: the LBJ-era welfare state; a growing impatience with liberalism's forbearing attitude toward criminality; a shift in employment from industrial to commercial sectors; and an aversion among some to the secularism of the center-left. Now white ethnics' voting patterns are about the same as those of whites in general. The same issues could easily drive Asians into the Republican camp, but almost certainly not for a couple of generations.

[Naveen]

We could have said the same thing about Irish- and Italian-Americans fifty years ago, when the Republicans were still the party of starch-collar Protestants. But then look what happened: the LBJ-era welfare state; a growing impatience with liberalism's forbearing attitude toward criminality; a shift in employment from industrial to commercial sectors; and an aversion among some to the secularism of the center-left. Now white ethnics' voting patterns are about the same as those of whites in general. The same issues could easily drive Asians into the Republican camp, but almost certainly not for a couple of generations.

The comparisons between white ethnics of the past and Asian-Americans of today don't hold up. The two are very different groups. (And "Asian-Americans" as it's understood by demographers is not how it's understood in the colloquial.)

Plus, the politics of the past is not that of the present. The points you make about liberalism's overreach in the 60's and 70's aren't salient today.

[phillyaggie]

As far as Philly is concerned, Asians as immigrants are fairly upwardly mobile. If the city doesn't have anything to hold them in town, they will likely move to the suburbs. This is clear from the stress most Asian-Americans put on education. Of course, Philly is not the only city to have to deal with this, it's more of a city-vs-suburbs issue. In past immigrant waves, people would settle into the city first because that's where the jobs and industry were, and that's where more of their own kind were... not so, in today's world. Now, more jobs are created in the 'burbs, and immigrants (Asians, at least) might first come to America and land in a city but they soon move out to suburbs for safety, education, taxation issues... perceived or real.

[OffenseTaken]

The comparisons between white ethnics of the past and Asian-Americans of today don't hold up. The two are very different groups. (And "Asian-Americans" as it's understood by demographers is not how it's understood in the colloquial.)

Plus, the politics of the past is not that of the present. The points you make about liberalism's overreach in the 60's and 70's aren't salient today.

I shouldn't say "the same issues"; it is an oversimplification. In some cases there are similar problems that have every bit as much currency, however.

All I mean to say is that, if Democrats do an even better job of alienating them, it won't matter that they feel unwelcome among Republicans right now.

[Naveen]

I shouldn't say "the same issues"; it is an oversimplification. In some cases there are similar problems that have every bit as much currency, however.

Such as?

All I mean to say is that, if Democrats do an even better job of alienating them, it won't matter that they feel unwelcome among Republicans right now.

Huh? Lot's of weirdness to unpack here, so I won't bother addressing it. But it sounds like you're expecting/hoping Asian-Americans leave the Democratic camp and start voting Republican.

[OffenseTaken]

Such as?

The main gripe of the Reagan Democrats (or Rizzocrats for that matter) was that their party no longer respected the interests of productive, law-abiding people of modest means; it had instead, they said, become the party of failed social transfers toward people who were neither productive nor law-abiding. I'm not saying it was accurate; I'm saying it was the perception. And that idea could easily find a sympathetic audience among many Asian-American communities soon; it has already in recent years in California, with the political controversy surrounding the LA riots and Proposition 209.

Huh? Lot's of weirdness to unpack here, so I won't bother addressing it. But it sounds like you're expecting/hoping Asian-Americans leave the Democratic camp and start voting Republican.

The only weirdness I see is in that utterly groundless statement. I'm sorry that I don't recite enough party shibboleths to convince you I'm not from the enemy camp.

[Naveen]

The main gripe of the Reagan Democrats (or Rizzocrats for that matter) was that their party no longer respected the interests of productive, law-abiding people of modest means; it had instead, they said, become the party of failed social transfers toward people who were neither productive nor law-abiding. I'm not saying it was accurate; I'm saying it was the perception. And that idea could easily find a sympathetic audience among many Asian-American communities soon; it has already in recent years in California, with the political controversy surrounding the LA riots and Proposition 209.

I think you're right about the Reagan Democrats. But also I think the disenchantment with the Democratic party amongst white ethnics had just as much to do with the fact that they weren't really "ethnics" anymore and that they had become social equals with other whites.

But in regards to California, the last I checked the state was still solidly Democratic, including Asian-Americans. The riots were 20 years ago and Prop 209 almost as old. If there was some movement to the GOP camp, they seem to have moved right back.

Moreover, the Democratic Party of today is not the party of yesteryear you keep bringing up. The Democrats barely address the issues of the poor at this point, and are primarily focused on the middle-class (they learned the lessons of those decades very well). The "social transfer" issues of today aren't between the unproductive poor and the wider society, but between the wealthiest Americans and the middle-classes. And while there is certainly the possibility that Asian-Americans could end up being the next group of suckers who believe that tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the middle-class safety net will somehow make them the next Mitt Romney, I don't see that happening.

But I think, really, this all may be beside the point. The real split between the parties seems cultural at this point, not economic. There are plenty of people in both parties who vote against their economic self-interests. And as long as the GOP continues to define itself so narrowly, I think their voting base will continue to narrow as well.

The only weirdness I see is in that utterly groundless statement. I'm sorry that I don't recite enough party shibboleths to convince you I'm not from the enemy camp.

No one asked you to. It's just curious that you assume it's the Democrats who will do the alienating, when what I see is the Republicans having successfully alienated black voters (remember, they used to be loyal Republicans), and then Hispanic voters (who used to split their vote more evenly). Yet your posts seem to imply it's the Democrats who will drive voters out of their party into the unwelcoming arms of the GOP. And for the reasons above, I just don't see that happening.

[OffenseTaken]

I think you're right about the Reagan Democrats. But also I think the disenchantment with the Democratic party amongst white ethnics had just as much to do with the fact that they weren't really "ethnics" anymore and that they had become social equals with other whites.

Absolutely, but who's to say the prevailing definition of "whiteness" won't further broaden in the coming decades to encompass Asians as well? Japanese, Filipinos, and Koreans are already marrying European-Americans as often as Protestants and Catholics were three generations ago.

And while there is certainly the possibility that Asian-Americans could end up being the next group of suckers who believe that tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the middle-class safety net will somehow make them the next Mitt Romney, I don't see that happening.

I have to admit that I may have given the Republicans a lot of undue credit. They have been modestly successful of late in sending their own rank and file to the polls, and in winning over a few voters with no party loyalties. Compare that to the 1970's, when they were enormously successful in winning over voters with strong Democratic loyalties.

I don't want to digress, but: when it was still the party of Nixon, Reagan, and Bill Buckley, the GOP was just remarkably more adept at engaging people from outside their group. They told Democrats, "We sympathize with your point of view, but you should be on our side, and here's why." Could you imagine Eric Cantor deigning to be so conciliatory? "We're the job creators, f*ck you" is unlikely to win too many converts, and you're right that Asian-Americans (or anyone else) are unlikely to be won over to the Republican camp, as long as that remains their battle cry.

No one asked you to. It's just curious that you assume it's the Democrats who will do the alienating, when what I see is the Republicans having successfully alienated black voters (remember, they used to be loyal Republicans), and then Hispanic voters (who used to split their vote more evenly). Yet your posts seem to imply it's the Democrats who will drive voters out of their party into the unwelcoming arms of the GOP. And for the reasons above, I just don't see that happening.

Not that they will do the alienating, but that they still could; the Democrats cannot take the Asian vote for granted.

I will make one more concession, but this one I'm kind of pulling out of my ass. It seems like Asian-Americans, particularly from East Asia, don't have much appreciation for the traditional "Anglo-Saxon" beliefs that undergird modern conservatism: the pursuit of self-interest as the only effective way of helping one's neighbors; the elevation of property rights to the same level as (or even higher than) personal rights; an insistence that the worst profiteers are better at fulfilling a social need than the best government agency. And I think it's significant that East Asian societies seldom see the state as at cross-purposes with the individual. On social policies, even the ruling party in Singapore, any capitalist's wet dream, is to the left of Obama (if being to the left of Stalin is even possible).

Of course, there also tends to be a strong taboo against abusing the help you've been given, and an insistence self-reliance and all that. So if Asian-Americans end up staying within and influencing the Democratic Party, the Republicans could fux wit' it.

[Naveen]

Absolutely, but who's to say the prevailing definition of "whiteness" won't further broaden in the coming decades to encompass Asians as well? Japanese, Filipinos, and Koreans are already marrying European-Americans as often as Protestants and Catholics were three generations ago.

True. "Whiteness" is an ever changing concept. And I think when you look at the GOP, a lot of people see racism, but what I see more of is "culturalism". That is, "white culture" being good. And since Asians tend to adopt to that culture fairly adeptly, particularly the first generation raised in the U.S., I don't see the GOP intentionally alienating them the way they've done with Hispanics.

I have to admit that I may have given the Republicans a lot of undue credit. They have been modestly successful of late in sending their own rank and file to the polls, and in winning over a few voters with no party loyalties. Compare that to the 1970's, when they were enormously successful in winning over voters with strong Democratic loyalties.

I don't want to digress, but: when it was still the party of Nixon, Reagan, and Bill Buckley, the GOP was just remarkably more adept at engaging people from outside their group. They told Democrats, "We sympathize with your point of view, but you should be on our side, and here's why." Could you imagine Eric Cantor deigning to be so conciliatory? "We're the job creators, f*ck you" is unlikely to win too many converts, and you're right that Asian-Americans (or anyone else) are unlikely to be won over to the Republican camp, as long as that remains their battle cry.

Yep, which is why I keep saying the Democratic Party has changed and the old dynamics are no longer in play. The Democrats saw all those voters peel away and changed their policies in response. Moreover, a lot of Democrats looked at the social programs they'd created and said "This isn't working to reduce poverty; in fact, it's cementing it," and subsequently changed course.

And as you point out, the GOP has become radicalized in a way it previously wasn't.

This floated around a little while last year, but it's worth posting. It's a 1980 GOP presidential debate between Bush Sr. and Reagan. Just listen to the way they talk about illegal immigrants, their children, and how to solve the problem. I mean, they both sound like Democrats today. Plus, when Bush Sr. talks about illegal immigrants as honest, hard-working, good people, the crowd claps its approval. Later, Reagan says we should acknowledge why Mexicans illegally immigrate, and that we should have a more open immigration policy. Shocking to think these guys are the predecessors to the modern GOP.

Not that they will do the alienating, but that they still could; the Democrats cannot take the Asian vote for granted.

I will make one more concession, but this one I'm kind of pulling out of my ass. It seems like Asian-Americans, particularly from East Asia, don't have much appreciation for the traditional "Anglo-Saxon" beliefs that undergird modern conservatism: the pursuit of self-interest as the only effective way of helping one's neighbors; the elevation of property rights to the same level as (or even higher than) personal rights; an insistence that the worst profiteers are better at fulfilling a social need than the best government agency. And I think it's significant that East Asian societies seldom see the state as at cross-purposes with the individual. On social policies, even the ruling party in Singapore, any capitalist's wet dream, is to the left of Obama (if being to the left of Stalin is even possible).

Of course, there also tends to be a strong taboo against abusing the help you've been given, and an insistence self-reliance and all that. So if Asian-Americans end up staying within and influencing the Democratic Party, the Republicans could fux wit' it.

I agree Democrats can't take the vote for granted. And a sharp turn to the economic left would do that. But Obama is no leftist (despite what Republicans may say) and I don't see the party as a whole tacking that way anytime soon (much to some liberals' dismay). And on issues like education and foreign policy, there's no doubt Asians line up with the Democrats. The one issue that goes the GOP way is taxes, but I don't see Asian-Americans as single-issue voters at all.

But one final thing. I think the "Anglo-Saxon" beliefs you highlight above aren't part of some long American tradition, which would be the famed "Protestant work ethic". The points you list are modern conservatism; and I don't think that set of beliefs falls in line with the American tradition of valuing hard work and struggle, while still acknowledging people can fall on hard times through no fault of their own, and that the rich aren't some special class of human being. Modern conservatism values a perversion of the Protestant work ethic, the same way they've perverted Reagan into some saint of conservative purity he never was (as highlighted by the video clip above).