Saylor Grove

**bungee** · 11-07-2011, 01:16 PM

Just wondering what readers think of the rain water garden installation at Saylor Grove on Lincoln Drive.

I know it is supposed to treat rain water run off to mitigate pollutants. And I have tried to like it. But it just looks like an unkempt bog to me, more this year than ever. Its been six years since it was installed and it looks like the plant material is choking itself and the water looks like mosquito breeding heaven.

Is this what is was supposed to evolve into or is Fairmount Park too stretched to manage it?

**Kukla65th** · 11-09-2011, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by bungee

Just wondering what readers think of the rain water garden installation at Saylor Grove on Lincoln Drive.

I know it is supposed to treat rain water run off to mitigate pollutants. And I have tried to like it. But it just looks like an unkempt bog to me, more this year than ever. Its been six years since it was installed and it looks like the plant material is choking itself and the water looks like mosquito breeding heaven.

Is this what is was supposed to evolve into or is Fairmount Park too stretched to manage it?

I think it is what was intended. By virtue of Saylor Groves topography, it was a natural site for such a design. It further supported water department policy and a goal of the park in locations where possible.

It's definitely not a formal garden, but I feel like Saylor Grove on the whole looks a lot greener and better kept than a number of years ago, now.

**billy ross** · 11-09-2011, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kukla65th

I think it is what was intended. By virtue of Saylor Groves topography, it was a natural site for such a design. It further supported water department policy and a goal of the park in locations where possible.

It's definitely not a formal garden, but I feel like Saylor Grove on the whole looks a lot greener and better kept than a number of years ago, now.

I agree that it's much nicer than it used to be. However, it was experimental, and it didn't quite turn out as planned/hoped. This is a case of man trying to restore the natural environment that used to be there before man messed things up, and the science on that isn't very well developed. The Saylor's Grove project was pushing the edge of the science at the time, and it has shown that these man-made wetlands need to be larger to really work. I'm not sure what the plans are to refine the plan at Saylor's Grove, though. Since the Monoshone is still very much polluted, I am guessing that the water department will do some things to Saylor's Grove to try to make it more effective in cleaning the water that dumps into the Monoshone. This is a Water Department project, and the Water Department has all of the money in the world.

**bungee** · 11-10-2011, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Kukla65th

I think it is what was intended. By virtue of Saylor Groves topography, it was a natural site for such a design. It further supported water department policy and a goal of the park in locations where possible.

It's definitely not a formal garden, but I feel like Saylor Grove on the whole looks a lot greener and better kept than a number of years ago, now.

I wouldn't ask the question about success or lack there of if it was in the middle of a forest. But it is a highly visible installation, not natural but intentional. I expect that it is supposed to be low maintenance to no maintenance. But something seems to be wrong with the way things have established themselves. Maybe it just need a little tinkering to get it to the place where it is has both function and some semblance of form. At the moment its difficult to see into unless you stop your car get out and walk around the site, and even then its very overgrown and the water surface appears blankented with algae.

**Worm** · 11-10-2011, 10:14 AM

Go visit some other stormwater wetlands and let us know if they are more inviting than this one.

**PhillyTex** · 11-10-2011, 10:36 AM

I was a fan of the "classic" Saylor's Grove. It was a great place to count and arrange all those discarded chicken bones while high on crack.

Seriously though, I am optimistic that with a little tweaking, the area could be made to look and function better. PWD seems to prefer to put every project on hiatus once they reach about 80% completion, though.

**bungee** · 11-10-2011, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Worm

Go visit some other stormwater wetlands and let us know if they are more inviting than this one.

I don't have time for to survey stormwater wetlands, but if you google stormwater wetlands, stormwater management, etc. you come up with a number of sites that include images that range from the idyllic to the functional. Funnily enough, one stood out as visually unsuccessful. It was a jpg. of Saylors Grove!

The link below takes you to a site with images that are what I expected the site to look like. It shows in preparatory stages and after planting:

Avery County*Center: Banner Elk Constructed Stormwater Wetland

Perhaps it is just that the site has fallen prey to the non-native (or native) specious of plants that plague most of Fairmount Park like the lot at Johnson and Lincoln Drive where the Mayfair used to be? Or maybe it was over planted and the result is what we see at present. Even if it is serving a useful function re pollutants, the planting seems top heavy and - in any case - a place you need to approach with Deep Woods Off.

**Worm** · 11-10-2011, 02:44 PM

Here are some links for you to read:

T-VSSI - Saylor Grove Stormwater Wetland

http://www.phillywatersheds.org/doc/...d_Creation.pdf

http://www.phillyriverinfo.org/WICLi...Compressed.pdf

**J&J19118** · 11-10-2011, 03:38 PM

That's funny, Saylor Grove. It's always just been "the bog on Lincoln Drive" in our household.

**Worm** · 11-10-2011, 03:52 PM

You guys are right, we should petition the city to just pave it over and put up a dollar store, the heck with the environmental benefits and the protection of our drinking water.

**bungee** · 11-10-2011, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Worm

You guys are right, we should petition the city to just pave it over and put up a dollar store, the heck with the environmental benefits and the protection of our drinking water.

That does not answer my question. I merely asked if the site is, at present, what was intended? The links posted have images of the site that are coherent. Lately it seems to have become incoherent and overgrown. It looks as though some of the plant material needs to be edited. So my question remains - is the site's current appearance intentional? Is this what the designers expected by 2011?

**sometimesilie** · 11-11-2011, 09:39 AM

I could not possibly care less what Saylor Grove looks like.

My question is, does it accomplish what it was made to, successfully mitigating the runoff from the big apartment buildings up the hill? If so, great. Problem solved. IF there are things to be learned that could be applied to the next project of it's like, learn em and apply em.

If people think it is ugly or whatever, it is adjacent to 1700+ acres of beautiful Wissahickon park. My recommendation would be to go there.

**bungee** · 11-11-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by sometimesilie

I could not possibly care less what Saylor Grove looks like.

My question is, does it accomplish what it was made to, successfully mitigating the runoff from the big apartment buildings up the hill? If so, great. Problem solved. IF there are things to be learned that could be applied to the next project of it's like, learn em and apply em.

If people think it is ugly or whatever, it is adjacent to 1700+ acres of beautiful Wissahickon park. My recommendation would be to go there.

Well - per one of the posts above there seems to be some thought aside from being a black eye on the 1700 acres of beautiful parkland, that it doesn't function as successfully as was hoped.

In any case, thanks for the recommendation.

**sometimesilie** · 11-11-2011, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by bungee

Well - per one of the posts above there seems to be some thought aside from being a black eye on the 1700 acres of beautiful parkland, that it doesn't function as successfully as was hoped.

In any case, thanks for the recommendation.

I had a part time gig downtown prior and during the construction that went on at Saylors and one of my co-workers was a retired SEPTA driver who volunteered extensively with FOW and, particularly, water testing. (I could be misremembering the FOW part but he did work closely with them- they were the folks who had the electronic monitoring boxes on some of the feeder streams a number of years ago) He treated it very seriously even though it was strictly a volunteer gig and he could talk about water issues regarding the Wissahickon for an hour or more at a time. It was very, very interesting (to me) and Saylor's was one of the topics. If I can run into him I'll ask him for some info and report back.

In the mean time, if anyone is interested in the Wissahickon and spots like Saylors, I highly, highly recommend this 4 volume set; Philadelphia's Wissahickon Valley, 1620-2020 : metropolitan paradise, the struggle for nature in the city particularly the 4th volume ("Corridor") which deals with today's park and touches extensively on modern challenges such as urban/suburban sprawl, waste water management, and new philosophies, from a kind of environmental engineering perspective, on being a good and sustainable steward of the park on an institutional level (how should the FOW and city work with environmental engineering firms to ensure best practice for park management). It's technical enough to really get into the how's and why's without being inaccessible to the layperson. With a liberal arts background, that would be me.

I am about 95% sure they cover Saylor's in volume 4.

It's a pricey read- I borrowed it from my alma mater library, which is Temple, and it's on my Amazon Wish List for when I find myself a little more flush with cash. If your local Free Library doesn't own it you always ask them to make an inter-library loan request (I believe at any branch) and they will search the online catalogs of local institutions like Temple, Penn, Drexel, etc. and borrow it on your behalf if a copy is available.