The Pittsburgh Thread

**eldondre** · 04-10-2009, 01:46 AM

Tales from Pennsylvania's other city. It's a strange place where people live in the hills, neigh, ON the hills as in the Mediterranean. Hills that make manayunk look like South Philly. It looks dirty, but there's no trash blowing around. Downtown is dead, like Philadelphia pre-rendell. It's signature sandwich (Primantis)disappoints, like a Reading Terminal Cheesesteak. Some people are friendly, some are not. Downtown has lots of construction. Let us see what the sun brings.

**desolate** · 04-10-2009, 07:19 AM

I'd venture to say more than 80% of Philadelphia have never been west of Harrisburg in a car.

Tell us more of this place in Ohio.

**Two Street** · 04-10-2009, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by desolate

I'd venture to say more than 80% of Philadelphia have never been west of Harrisburg in a car.

Hell, I've never been past Hershey.

**RussDiamond** · 04-10-2009, 11:00 AM

I've always found folks in Pittsburgh way friendlier and open than those who live east of the Susquehanna (including my own town). Even my loud and brutish Eagles fandom is tolerated with only mild but friendly irritation. The Carson Street nightlife rivals anything else in the state. The general aviation airport (Allegheny) rocks and is convenient to town. The ground transportation hub is quite seedier than the 30th St. Station. Pittsburgh has a fine symphony. In general, folks there are more attuned to the shenanigans of Harrisburg. I hate driving there; all the hills and rivers make for long and confusing routes.

If I were looking to visit, I'd pick Pittsburgh. If I were looking to move, I'd pick Philly.

**eldondre** · 04-10-2009, 02:50 PM

Well no sun today but in daylight, it's not dirty but rundown. The streets appear to have been a victim of fiscal cutbacks. The architecture is impressive. They have a sake fifth, macys downtown. Lots of people on the street in daytime. It's like desolates paradise where parks are sacrificed for roads. Heading over to try pizza from an oven from Napoli

**desolate** · 04-10-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

Well no sun today but in daylight, it's not dirty but rundown. The streets appear to have been a victim of fiscal cutbacks. The architecture is impressive. They have a sake fifth, macys downtown. Lots of people on the street in daytime. It's like desolates paradise where parks are sacrificed for roads. Heading over to try pizza from an oven from Napoli

Ya know not once, not one time have I ever said road over park or parking lot over park.

I'd love to see 8th and Market be a park or the lot at 20th an Market made into a park or the Richmond Rail Yards into a park.

COuld the bad roads be attributed to the massive costs of all those tunnels and bridge to maintain?

**eldondre** · 04-10-2009, 04:55 PM

Pittsburghs back roads come from it's fiscal mess. Their problems are preety similar to ours. Bridges, roads, tunnels, and a city workforce that hasn't matched the pops declines as well as a free spending city governtment on pet projects. Their 1992 happened in 2004. Philly is probably going to have to do the same to it's roads over the next few years, ESP if the Feds male them put in new Ada ramps

**RussDiamond** · 04-10-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by desolate

COuld the bad roads be attributed to the massive costs of all those tunnels and bridge to maintain?

Most of the bridges/tunnels are state or federally supported.

Even so, PBG still has lots of infrastructure problems, not the least of which is the equivalent of councilmanic powers when it comes to determining which repairs are made. Guess who lives on the best maintained streets?

Population loss (as a percentage of historic levels) is one of PBG's biggest issues. When all that stuff was built, there was a robust tax base to warrant it. PBG is much more hollow than Philly in that regard.

**Seanibus** · 04-10-2009, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

Tales from Pennsylvania's other city. It's a strange place where people live in the hills, neigh, ON the hills as in the Mediterranean. Hills that make manayunk look like South Philly. It looks dirty, but there's no trash blowing around. Downtown is dead, like Philadelphia pre-rendell. It's signature sandwich (Primantis)disappoints, like a Reading Terminal Cheesesteak. Some people are friendly, some are not. Downtown has lots of construction. Let us see what the sun brings.

My great grandfather was mayor of Pittsburgh, but I think I am fortunate that my grandfather married a Virginia girl and escaped Western PA. Maybe I am wrong, but I think I can count myself lucky.

**Oladybug** · 04-11-2009, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by RussDiamond

I've always found folks in Pittsburgh way friendlier and open than those who live east of the Susquehanna

That's my experience too. In another lifetime, I was a bartender in a Cleveland-area Helmsley Hotel and always found that the friendliest folks, BY FAR, were the visitors from Pittsburgh. I always had fun with them. Those were the days of the "Steel Curtain," and listening to the banter about football piqued my interest enough that it was then that I started to watch it.

And then there was this hot, hot hottie from Pittsburgh who played lead guitar in the lounge band. That's another story.

Originally Posted by RussDiamond

If I were looking to visit, I'd pick Pittsburgh.

I keep meaning ONE OF THESE DAYS to stop in Pittsburgh, en route to visiting family in Cleveland, and visit the Andy Warhol Museum. Anybody been there and care to comment?

**ZooieFinton** · 04-12-2009, 08:03 AM

I don't like the forced commutes over the bridges or tunnels, but other than that, I can well adjust to some of the strange twists and turns. If there is opportunity in Pittsburgh, I could take it. In fact, two of the roads there intersect each other 3 times. I think one of them is Beechwood Blvd.

**ArcticSplash** · 04-12-2009, 11:18 AM

My take was that it was a bit blander than Philly... but not as dead as Wilmington, DE is where the only time you see people on the streets downtown is the 45-minute lunch break banks give their employees at noon.

Pitts suffered the same fate as Philly, white flight to outer burbs and people chasing wooded-hills and stick-tree bliss. I haven't been there since the kid-mayor took over but from what I have gathered, he's really changed the image of Pittsburgh and it's slowly shedded its deadwood Allentown-like rustbelt persona.

But Pittsburgh already had their big downturn and from what I've read online--they are not suffering much in this housing downturn. Local employment is still very good with the new industries that have moved into town and the tax base of the city has completely changed since the 70s.

The city vs. suburb job choices are not as stark in PGH as they are in Philadelphia because of our high taxes, which is why Pittsburgh was able to benefit a lot from the tech boom while Philadelphia didn't benefit from it at all because all those jobs (and workers) went to the suburbs.

My hope is one day the General Assembly will finally wake up and realize that Pennsylvania's economic future still lies with its two big important cities. All the years of giving benes and coddling Carbon County, Scranton and Wilkes-Barre and trying to turn the area from Allentown to Scranton into an NYC suburb hasn't generated the same kind of tax base that PA has relied on in PHILA and PGH for centuries. Rural and suburban Pennsylvania is just as important as the cities, but if you consistently ignore the problems in the cities and let them get sick--the cancer spreads outside the city and starts to affect the broader population.

It's not just Philadelphia as a city that continues to lose population, it's Pennsylvania has a whole. People leave the city not just to leave the city but in many cases they just leave the friggin state and we lose a job and a taxpayer as a result.

Economic growth for Pennsylvania has to include an intense focus on improving urban PA life as well as catering to the needs of rural PA and the infrastructure needs of the entire state. For one thing, the two E/W interstates that connect the state together are in very poor shape and desperate need of expansion and upgrades, the Penna Turnpike especially. The Amtrak rail line connecting PGH to Phila needs bigger easements and massive upgrades to upgrade train speeds. It says a lot when most people looking at a 7 hour car ride to PGH from Philly just give up and board a plane instead to get across the state. Erie, PA is also in the same boat and has been lacking visible growth since the 80s... that place looks like it's frozen in time.

We are a little state that's half the size of Kansas. And yet to get around Pennsylvania if fees like you're driving in Texas. Using up a whole lotta gas and taking forever to get to wherever it is you're going.

PA needs new industry. Why haven't we been working hard to get battery factories in Pennsylvania to quench the thirst for high efficiency hybrid vehicles?

We have plenty of dead factories in this state that can be remodeled into factories needed to produce the goods that the clean-energy freaks want. Somebody has to make the wind turbines, the transformers, the batteries, voltage steppers, solar collector panels and the like. Why isn't any of this crap made in Pennsylvania?

Why is it when the nuclear power plant in Limerick needs to replace its turbines... they come from Germany... a very expensive, high-tax entity over across the sea? Why don't we make those turbines here? Surely we can tax-exempt a turbine maker well enough that those very highly-engineered and super-expensive pieces of equipment can be made here in Pennsylvania, which also happens to be close by a lot of this country's nuclear power generation?

And along these lines, since the 1960s Pennsylvania has been a net positive electrical generation state... meaning we sell more electricity than we consume... until very recently. Why don't we take the initiative and encourage more electrical production in this state and do what we used to do best.... sell our cheap electricity to New Yorkers who can't get enough of it?

A few of these factories in Philadelphia could employ thousands of semi-skilled workers and take a bunch of people we have off of TANF.

What the f___ is Harrisburg doing every day?

**Oladybug** · 04-12-2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by MayfairMeat

The city vs. suburb job choices are not as stark in PGH as they are in Philadelphia because of our high taxes, which is why Pittsburgh was able to benefit a lot from the tech boom while Philadelphia didn't benefit from it at all because all those jobs (and workers) went to the suburbs.

Tell that to Councilman Darrell Clarke.

**eldondre** · 04-12-2009, 06:11 PM

It doesn't take 7 hours, it's five to 6 hours form Philly. The Amtrak line doesn't need a bigger ROW it needs higher speeds and/or straighter ROW(Read, new tunnels). Pittsburgh has suffered less from job spraw but it's not immune. I agree that PA needs to invest more in its cities (including scranton and erie). It nees to lwoer its corp income tax as well. That said, Pittsburgh's economy is doing okay, though it's not immune but this is nothing they haven't dealt with before. The downtown is suprisingly intact and is overflowing with incredible late 19th/easrly 20th c architecture. It's fairly lively during the day but pretty dead at night, though it is showing signs of change around the cultural district. there's a lot of rehabs going on downtown. the T is decent though it doesn't go enough places. I didn't get a chance to ride the busway but the bus system is okay, if somewhat inadequate for getting around after hours. cabs are scarce, but I think part of the problem is the lack fo a downtown scene which makes being a cabbie a lot less profitable. There are some cool neighborhoods near downtown, esp the mexican war streets. Overall, it's got a lot of potential. I'd seriously consider a job offer in downtown pittsburgh.
MEat, remember, this ain't texas, for better AND for worse. I just wish tere was a high speed train to compete with flying so I could visit more often. I'd definitely come back and it certainly has been my most positive visit in the rust belt. In fact, I think a revitalized Pittsburgh (and Philly) are important to PA but I think Pittsburgh may be the most likely to help turn the rust belt region around. It may be a long shot, but I think its the best shot.

**caL** · 04-12-2009, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by MayfairMeat

My hope is one day the General Assembly will finally wake up and realize that Pennsylvania's economic future still lies with its two big important cities. All the years of giving benes and coddling Carbon County, Scranton and Wilkes-Barre and trying to turn the area from Allentown to Scranton into an NYC suburb hasn't generated the same kind of tax base that PA has relied on in PHILA and PGH for centuries. Rural and suburban Pennsylvania is just as important as the cities, but if you consistently ignore the problems in the cities and let them get sick--the cancer spreads outside the city and starts to affect the broader population.

What the f___ is Harrisburg doing every day?

Harrisburg's trying to get Philly to lower its wage tax. That's the key, like you say, to bringing jobs and people to Philly. Rendell must be having a conniption over City Council's push to raise the wage tax. He's mad enough that we can't develop our casino's to add to tax relief. We're an urban center. Why is it that neighbors in quiet places like Valley Forge can accept slots machines but Philly residents predict doom? And why does this minority of residents have so much pull? I don't mean to get off topic, but my point is I think Harrisburg is wondering what the f___ Philly gov't is doing every day.

**eldondre** · 04-12-2009, 08:38 PM

the 6.5 percent net profits tax might also be a problem

**johnnie** · 04-12-2009, 09:15 PM

MM, it is about a five hour drive to the Burgh from Philly, depending on the Schuylkill mostly. I made it from my parents in Wayne to downtown Pitt in 4:15 minutes both there and back. 294 or so miles. Typically youre going about 80 or higher (Making Dave uncomfortable at high speeds was entertaining!) the entire time and only need one bathroom/fuel stop along the way.

**ArcticSplash** · 04-12-2009, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by johnnie

MM, it is about a five hour drive to the Burgh from Philly, depending on the Schuylkill mostly. I made it from my parents in Wayne to downtown Pitt in 4:15 minutes both there and back. 294 or so miles. Typically youre going about 80 or higher (Making Dave uncomfortable at high speeds was entertaining!) the entire time and only need one bathroom/fuel stop along the way.

Ugh I live as far eastern PA as you can get... as I can walk to the Delaware faster than I can drive to Wayne.

So yeah it's 7 hours.

**johnnie** · 04-12-2009, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by MayfairMeat

Ugh I live as far eastern PA as you can get... as I can walk to the Delaware faster than I can drive to Wayne.

So yeah it's 7 hours.

It wont take you 2 hours to get to Wayne. Not our fault you chose poorly!

**eldondre** · 04-13-2009, 12:11 AM

obviously johnnie was breaking the law n ways that not everyone is comfortable with, so perhaps a range of 5-6 hours, give or take, is appropriate. It could be 7 if you let at rush hour but the Philly side remains the biggest variable.