Unions may hold city budget relief hostage ...

[raider.adam]

Calling everyone a hostage taker is fun!

Sounds like the unions are gearing up to fight the pension amendments when it goes back to the House for reconciliation.

If this takes place, I am curious if people are going to yell at the unions for fighting reform amendments and holding up the budget relief they want.

[billy ross]

Calling everyone a hostage taker is fun!

Sounds like the unions are gearing up to fight the pension amendments when it goes back to the House for reconciliation.

If this takes place, I am curious if people are going to yell at the unions for fighting reform amendments and holding up the budget relief they want.

The question is, do the unions have the oomph? Meanwhile, doesn't Rendell have a line item veto?

[stonefly]

I can't see the unions beating this. I am not surprised the unions are oposed to the measure. This may be just what Nutter needs for pension reform. It is leaving the unions with no choice.

Budget help for city could come with catch | Philadelphia Inquirer | 08/26/2009

[eldondre]

The question is, do the unions have the oomph? Meanwhile, doesn't Rendell have a line item veto?

Rendell wasn't the unions best friend when he was mayor, now he no longer needs them for anything. he's indicated support for the bill. I think the question wil be can the unions control the house?

[PhillyRunner]

Rendell wasn't the unions best friend when he was mayor, now he no longer needs them for anything. he's indicated support for the bill. I think the question wil be can the unions control the house?

You took the words right out of my mouth. Although I wasn't living in the city at the time, the description of his fight with the unions from "A Prayer for the City" suggests that he was willing to battle them when needed. And as a lame-duck governor, he has more freedom to follow that model for the sake of the city.

As for the House vote, anyone's guess is as good as mine. One of the Inky articles suggested that even the amended bill had bipartisan support; but that doesn't mean a whole lot until the votes are actually cast.

[romano]

Jeez Adam, you're kind of turning into a tool with this whole budget fight. While on merit, I support the pension changes brought about by the amendments, it does set a dangerous precedent of Harrisburg meddling in Philadelphia's affairs. At this point I just want the damn thing passed, which is probably what the point of the doomsday budget was in the first place. Episodes like this is why most people hate hate politics/politicians.

[Hospitalitygirl]

Jeez Adam, you're kind of turning into a tool with this whole budget fight. While on merit, I support the pension changes brought about by the amendments, it does set a dangerous precedent of Harrisburg meddling in Philadelphia's affairs. At this point I just want the damn thing passed, which is probably what the point of the doomsday budget was in the first place. Episodes like this is why most people hate hate politics/politicians.

Harrisburg wouldn't need to meddle in Philadelphia's affairs, if Philadelphia wouldn't keep leaving things at their feet.

[palvar]

Most coherent post I have ever seen on philly.com:

"if those guys [unions] are upset it must be a good bill"

[romano]

Harrisburg wouldn't need to meddle in Philadelphia's affairs, if Philadelphia wouldn't keep leaving things at their feet.

Maybe next time, Harrisburg could pass a law that in order to take a dump, the mayor of Philadelphia needs to ask for the State Senate's permission. Then they could attach a bunch of amendments and blame Philadelphia for laying its crap at their feet. Wouldn't be too different from the current situation.

[Hospitalitygirl]

Maybe next time, Harrisburg could pass a law that in order to take a dump, the mayor of Philadelphia needs to ask for the State Senate's permission. Then they could attach a bunch of amendments and blame Philadelphia for laying its crap at their feet. Wouldn't be too different from the current situation.

What part of: If you want to raise the sales tax, it takes the State's approval, don't you understand?

[PhillyRunner]

Maybe next time, Harrisburg could pass a law that in order to take a dump, the mayor of Philadelphia needs to ask for the State Senate's permission. Then they could attach a bunch of amendments and blame Philadelphia for laying its crap at their feet. Wouldn't be too different from the current situation.

I don't think that's particularly fair.

On the one hand, your point is well-made in that the underfunding of pension costs is not particular to Philadelphia. It's a problem facing many cities in PA (and across the country). In that regard, it does seem a bit heavy-handed for politicians in Harrisburg to delve so deeply into Philadelphia's problems.

On the other hand, Philadelphia is still a major economic engine for this state, and if the city faces a long-term threat to its fiscal health, the state certainly has an interest in averting that.

I would typically say that you are right, romano, and that for purposes of accountability, the state should let the city fend for itself. But, by way of analogy, it's not unlike when the FBI has to investigate local public corruption; sometimes you need an outsider to set things straight when the local system has demonstrated that it is broken. (Of course, the rationale for a state government intervening is even stronger, given that the city is, legally speaking, just a subsidiary organ of the state.)

[romano]

What part of: If you want to raise the sales tax, it takes the State's approval, don't you understand?

What part of: the only reason that is the case is because Harrisburg passed a law to make it so, don't you understand?

Look, I am not trying to pick a fight. But I hope people think long and hard about giving up even bigger chunks of Philadelphia's ability to control it's own affairs. In a state like Pennsylvania, with many people who have a deep antagonism towards this city, having the state legislature hold so much control over the city's affairs is a dangerous place to be.

[Illiniwek]

Jeez Adam, you're kind of turning into a tool with this whole budget fight. While on merit, I support the pension changes brought about by the amendments, it does set a dangerous precedent of Harrisburg meddling in Philadelphia's affairs. At this point I just want the damn thing passed, which is probably what the point of the doomsday budget was in the first place. Episodes like this is why most people hate hate politics/politicians.

When the state sends millions and millions of dollars to Philadelphia, does that count as meddling?

[RussDiamond]

But I hope people think long and hard about giving up even bigger chunks of Philadelphia's ability to control it's own affairs. In a state like Pennsylvania, with many people who have a deep antagonism towards this city, having the state legislature hold so much control over the city's affairs is a dangerous place to be.

Like it or not, Philadelphia is a "child" of a larger "parent" concern - the Commonwealth - as is every other municipality and subdivision in the state. Philly's childhood in this respect is exaggereated not because Harrisburg chose to interfere, but directly due to the City's inability to handle its own affairs in the past. You want more autonomy, get City Council to grow up. Literally.

I do find it slightly amusing that some of those who demand more autonomy for the City (in reference to Harrisburg) would likely be among the first to call on Wasington, DC to impose its will upon PA - a wholly different situation that's far less warranted than PA's parenthood of Philly.

I view this juxtaposition as a failure of our schools to teach the proper relationships between municipalities, states and the federal government.

[romano]

When the state sends millions and millions of dollars to Philadelphia, does that count as meddling?

No more than when the city send millions and millions of dollars to Harrisburg in tax revenues.

[Valley Twin]

But, by way of analogy, it's not unlike when the FBI has to investigate local public corruption; sometimes you need an outsider to set things straight when the local system has demonstrated that it is broken.

OK, am I the only one who thinks it's a little strange for Harrisburg to try to "fix" poor broken Philadelphia?

[MuscleHead]

OK, am I the only one who thinks it's a little strange for Harrisburg to try to "fix" poor broken Philadelphia?

Sort of like Ted Haggard attempting to fix our broken lives.

[raider.adam]

Jeez Adam, you're kind of turning into a tool with this whole budget fight.

Nutter holds a rally to raise taxes and I am the tool?

On the one hand, your point is well-made in that the underfunding of pension costs is not particular to Philadelphia. It's a problem facing many cities in PA (and across the country). In that regard, it does seem a bit heavy-handed for politicians in Harrisburg to delve so deeply into Philadelphia's problems.

And Harrisburg is on track to seize their pensions as well.

What part of: the only reason that is the case is because Harrisburg passed a law to make it so, don't you understand?

Look, I am not trying to pick a fight. But I hope people think long and hard about giving up even bigger chunks of Philadelphia's ability to control it's own affairs. In a state like Pennsylvania, with many people who have a deep antagonism towards this city, having the state legislature hold so much control over the city's affairs is a dangerous place to be.

You act like it is some weird premise that a State is what grants municipalities the ability to tax. If a municipality is going to request more taxing powers from the State, then the State is well within its power to control how such taxing powers are used.

Philadelphia wanted more authority (even though it can't handle what it currently has). Harrisburg granted it, but with limits.

As HG said, if you don't want Harrisburg involved, don't ask for Harrisburg to be involved.

I mean seriously, you are acting like Philadelphia had no means to collect revenue.

OK, am I the only one who thinks it's a little strange for Harrisburg to try to "fix" poor broken Philadelphia?

"Fixing" is really a poor choice. Harrisburg is not fixing anything. They are putting constraints on requested powers. I still feel the net result of the legislation is more breaking - Harrisburg is just trying to stem some of the damage.

[PhillyRunner]

OK, am I the only one who thinks it's a little strange for Harrisburg to try to "fix" poor broken Philadelphia?

Not at all. But it's too easy to point out the hypocrisy of state legislators "meddling" in Philadelphia's affairs when they have a hard time managing their own affairs appropriately. That criticism doesn't really tell us whether their actions are in the long-term interests of the city's (and the state's) residents. Perhaps you might question the legislators' judgment in passing these amendments; but if you agree with the purpose and implementation of those amendments, then their judgment on this issue cannot have been too far off.

Let's be clear -- I'm not attributing benign or noble motives to the Republican senate; but it is possible, and even common, for people to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

[PhillyRunner]

And Harrisburg is on track to seize their pensions as well.

My recollection of the bill is that, in comparison to other municipalities, it places much more detailed restrictions on Philadelphia's ability to take advantage of the pension relief measures. I'm not saying these restrictions are unwarranted, but they did appear to be unique to Philadelphia. (I'm operating on memory and am happy to be proven wrong.)