Unions may hold city budget relief hostage ...

[caL]

This would have more of an impact for those IN the burbs that come shop into the city, No?
I can tell say for myself I for one will not be going to the burbs to save the extra 1%. Is just not that big of a saving difference...

But for those in the Northeast and Northwest, some people will go to the burbs. Not for small things but for big purchases. I think restaurants close to the border could be hurt as well. Willow Grove and Neshaminy must be happy.

[Hospitalitygirl]

This would have more of an impact for those IN the burbs that come shop into the city, No?
I can tell say for myself I for one will not be going to the burbs to save the extra 1%. Is just not that big of a saving difference...

No. It has an impact for everyone. There are people that come into the city to shop, but frankly, not that many--they have plenty, and better shopping options, with parking lots. It impacts city dwellers. Look at the article. They focused on Germantown Avenue, in Chestnut Hill, which is still part of the contiguous city and county of Philadelphia. Minutes away from them are Plymouth Meeting Mall, Willow Grove Mall, and of course, KoP. With big-azzed parking lots. And great stores. Big ones. Lots of them. Good department stores like Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom's and Neiman's and Lord & Taylor's, I could go on. 6% vs. 8%. Do the math. It really adds up.

However, it becomes about more than the math. Sure I can afford an extra $72 in taxes, but it bothers me to reward the City's incompetence. And you know what? That tax won't ever go away. In two years, they'll want more. And more. And more....

[Evelyn]

I see what you mean and am no fan of increasing sales tax either BUT
the draw that shopping IN the city has I don't think it would deter suburbanites from coming here. Not for 1%? NYC has an 8/375% sales tax up to $110 for clothes/shoes, Jersey has a no sales tax on clothes and shoes and 6% on rest. Do you think I ran to Jersey to save? Nope. Same here.

No. It has an impact for everyone. There are people that come into the city to shop, but frankly, not that many--they have plenty, and better shopping options, with parking lots. It impacts city dwellers. Look at the article. They focused on Germantown Avenue, in Chestnut Hill, which is still part of the contiguous city and county of Philadelphia. Minutes away from them are Plymouth Meeting Mall, Willow Grove Mall, and of course, KoP. With big-azzed parking lots. And great stores. Big ones. Lots of them. Good department stores like Bloomingdale's and Nordstrom's and Neiman's and Lord & Taylor's, I could go on. 6% vs. 8%. Do the math. It really adds up.

However, it becomes about more than the math. Sure I can afford an extra $72 in taxes, but it bothers me to reward the City's incompetence. And you know what? That tax won't ever go away. In two years, they'll want more. And more. And more....

[Hospitalitygirl]

I see what you mean and am no fan of increasing sales tax either BUT
the draw that shopping IN the city has I don't think it would deter suburbanites from coming here. Not for 1%? NYC has an 8/345% sales tax up to $110 for clothes/shoes, Jersey has a no sales tax on clothes and shoes and 6% on rest. Do you think I ran to Jersey to save? Nope. Same here.

Yes, but we don't have a Bloomingdale's or a Nordstrom's here. Or any of those other fine establishments I mentioned. We have some great boutiques; we have Boyd's, but who can afford them! I can't. We have some other places that are exposed in the other malls as well. I do sometimes combine a trip to NJ now that Nordstrom's is there. I can hit a few places we don't have here (Container Store, Crate + Barrel, if I need to replace a dish).

[Hospitalitygirl]

What we do have in the city that the suburbs largely don't have, is cultural offerings (think plays, shows, opera, ballet) and restaurants. That is why they come.

[Evelyn]

BINGO! Philly def needs to be more business friendly. It has sooooooo much draw than the burbs and it would be awesome to have these freaking stores here! I've been here almost 3 yrs and I have not being to Cherry Hill but KOP yes bc of Crate +Barrel and Pottery Barn.

Yes, but we don't have a Bloomingdale's or a Nordstrom's here. Or any of those other fine establishments I mentioned. We have some great boutiques; we have Boyd's, but who can afford them! I can't. We have some other places that are exposed in the other malls as well. I do sometimes combine a trip to NJ now that Nordstrom's is there. I can hit a few places we don't have here (Container Store, Crate + Barrel, if I need to replace a dish).

[raider.adam]

I see what you mean and am no fan of increasing sales tax either BUT
the draw that shopping IN the city has I don't think it would deter suburbanites from coming here. Not for 1%? NYC has an 8/375% sales tax up to $110 for clothes/shoes, Jersey has a no sales tax on clothes and shoes and 6% on rest. Do you think I ran to Jersey to save? Nope. Same here.

The thing is, people aren't necessarily going to calculate how much they save with the 1%. Most likely the mindset is "I know it is going to be cheaper outside of Philadelphia".

As I pointed out, economists have charted the effects and there is a border effect when sales tax goes up.

[Litter Box]

If you're buying a big ticket item don't forget Delaware has 0% sales tax. Hit the liquor store and you have a two fer.

[Hospitalitygirl]

If you're buying a big ticket item don't forget Delaware has 0% sales tax. Hit the liquor store and you have a two fer.

Exactly

[CHIOSSO]

If Vince Fumo was still in Harrisburg the city would have its money. He would have made a backroom deal by now.

[Evelyn]

You know I never thought about Delaware? Aside the 0% what else is in Delaware?

If you're buying a big ticket item don't forget Delaware has 0% sales tax. Hit the liquor store and you have a two fer.

[Hospitalitygirl]

You know I never thought about Delaware? Aside the 0% what else is in Delaware?

Total Wine; Christiana Mall; Moore Bros. Road trip?

[Evelyn]

How come Jersey is going down the crap hole with their lower sale %. How's the state of Delaware a state with 0% doing? Not much of a draw to them aside from lower sales tax. While maybe Jersey is more biz friendly, not much draw there either. It just ain't about nickles and shoes hon, is more complex.

The thing is, people aren't necessarily going to calculate how much they save with the 1%. Most likely the mindset is "I know it is going to be cheaper outside of Philadelphia".

As I pointed out, economists have charted the effects and there is a border effect when sales tax goes up.

[raider.adam]

How come Jersey is going down the crap hole with their lower sale %. How's the state of Delaware a state with 0% doing? Not much of a draw to them aside from lower sales tax. While maybe Jersey is more biz friendly, not much draw there either. It just ain't about nickles and shoes hon, is more complex.

No one said raising the sales tax will put a bullet in Philadelphia. What has been said is there are negative impacts to doing it and local businesses will take a hit (Councilwoman Anna Verna even said as much when she voted to pass it). You can choose to disbelieve a sales tax doesn't affect anything just because you won't shop outside the City, but it doesn't change the reality that many people do pick where they shop partially based on taxes.

As for NJ, it is going down the crapper for the same reasons California is: too many taxes and still spending too much above it.

[Evelyn]

I didn't say they were a good thing. What I believe is that the whole country is down the crappers and a mass exodus of shoppers will not necessary hit Jersey nor Dewalare and send us to the hole. Philly is way more than shopping but should also have more stores.
Maybe tell ur chick to start working on bringing bizness here.

No one said raising the sales tax will put a bullet in Philadelphia. What has been said is there are negative impacts to doing it and local businesses will take a hit (Councilwoman Anna Verna even said as much when she voted to pass it). You can choose to disbelieve a sales tax doesn't affect anything just because you won't shop outside the City, but it doesn't change the reality that many people do pick where they shop partially based on taxes.

As for NJ, it is going down the crapper for the same reasons California is: too many taxes and still spending too much above it.

[Hospitalitygirl]

I didn't say they were a good thing. What I believe is that the whole country is down the crappers and a mass exodus of shoppers will not necessary hit Jersey nor Dewalare and send us to the hole. Philly is way more than shopping but should also have more stores.
Maybe tell ur chick to start working on bringing bizness here.

This is all very tautological. Bringing more business *here* involves decimating and redoing the tax structure. Adding more taxes does nothing to incentivize businesses to locate here.

[MayfairMeat]

How come Jersey is going down the crap hole with their lower sale %. How's the state of Delaware a state with 0% doing? Not much of a draw to them aside from lower sales tax. While maybe Jersey is more biz friendly, not much draw there either. It just ain't about nickles and shoes hon, is more complex.

History has shown that people care a lot less about high consumption taxes (even nobody complains about the Federal excise tax on gasoline).

People complain a LOT about assessed taxes which come out the other end, like your income and your assets.



PA and NJ seem to be in the worst of both worlds because both states get a lot of their revenue directly taxing your backside... whereas nobody would complain about paying a few extra dollars to buy a TV, but then we don't have low sales taxes, either... so we hurt both ways.

Fixed income people are usually the ones who yell the loudest about sales taxes. Wage earners and the rich hardly blink.



This is why you see people talk so positively about the cost of living in Texas, which has very sales tax rates, especially in the big cities, but the locals down there mostly bitch about their high property tax rates [it's bad but nothing like Jersey]. Because properties down there are way cheaper than they are up here, average prop tax bills are still less than they are in PA/NJ, but not by much... still a couple thou each year for a $200K rancher.

I lived in San Antonio and had to pay a City Sales Tax, which was temporarily combined with a 1-cent VIA Transit Sales Tax, coupled with a Bexar County Sales Tax, coupled with a Texas Sales Tax.

All this is rolled up into one rate when you buy something and in some years the sales tax went above 10%.

Texas also lets its cities charge huge Hotel/Motel taxes, which in Dallas and San Antonio are extremely high and bring room rates that should be at $220 a night to $355 a night.

[MayfairMeat]

By the way, Fat Eddie said he is veto'ing this thing on Friday.

Unless they re-insert his pet spending back into the budget (he doesn't want CHIP slashed), then we will have Plan C.

[Hospitalitygirl]

If you want to know what we'll be in for, you will have to watch this

It's an episode from 1975, while NYC was in the throes of its financial miseries, and sadly hysterical. And probably prophetic for us.

[billy ross]

Studies show the elasticity of a sales tax is 1:1. In other words, for every 1% you raise the tax, you get 1% less than expected.

Since we are raising the sales tax 14%, we will most likely only collect 86% of the expected revenue.

You're assuming that the retailers affected (i.e. those near suburban competitors) won't lower their prices 2% (or maybe 1% more than they already have) to remain competitive with their suburban counterparts. Then the end result down the road will be either cheaper rents for them versus the burbs or a lower value of their franchise when they go to sell it (due to reduced profitability). They might even offer a 2% 'rebate' of the sales taxes as a marketing ploy. I don't know how the big national chains handle situations like this, but with stores like Circuit City going belly up, I am thinking about more mom and pops.