City closing tax burden gap with suburbs

[NickleDimer]

1) I also don't agree with the argument that suburban services are wholly better than city services.
2) I know people who live just over the city line because they want to be as close to the city as they possibly can be without paying a dime into it. Why?
3) Because the city offers higher quality places and experiences than the suburbs do. That's a type of service offered by the city.
4) My son plays fall ball for the 21st Ward in Upper Roxborough and I found out last night at practice that both of his coaches live in Flourtown but send their sons to the city's rec facilities to play baseball with my son. I wonder why?
5) What kind of Rec facilities does vaunted Lower Merion have for their kids? Crappy, compared with the infrastructure we have here in Philly.
6) I know because Lower Merion Soccer Club has been searching desperately for years for a home and they just found one temporarily between Conshohocken and Norristown, on my side of the river. Low quality of life Lower Merion didn't have any land for them to use, nor even a boathouse on their nine miles of Schuylkill River frontage.

1) nor does anyone else.
2) because they want to pay less taxes
3) most of those places and experiences are not funded by tax dollars
4) sounds like an overbearing coach/father who was booted out of his local league
5) both have decent facilities. if you want to do something in either place, you are usually able to. Unless the mayor actually goes through with his annual empty threat of slashing the parks & rec budget to the bones
6) Lower Merion Soccer Club's website lists 13 different fields in Lower Merion that they use along with 1 in Philadelphia and 1 in Conshy. Rowing is an antiquated sport.

[billy ross]

1) nor does anyone else.
2) because they want to pay less taxes
3) most of those places and experiences are not funded by tax dollars
4) sounds like an overbearing coach/father who was booted out of his local league
5) both have decent facilities. if you want to do something in either place, you are usually able to. Unless the mayor actually goes through with his annual empty threat of slashing the parks & rec budget to the bones
6) Lower Merion Soccer Club's website lists 13 different fields in Lower Merion that they use along with 1 in Philadelphia and 1 in Conshy. Rowing is an antiquated sport.

Lower Merion doesn't have any land for the LMSC to use. LMSC has been borrowing fields from local schools for years while they try to put together their 'own' fields. It's shameful, in my opinion, that supposedly family-friendly LM Township can't support its own soccer club with fields of their own. I know there's a popular perception that LM has such a high quality of life and offers so much for its residents, but the park system of 100% built-out Lower Merion Township is so pathetic that they couldn't even find land to support their soccer program, which had to lease formerly industrial land way out of the township, where township residents need to drive to the far end of the township, cross a borough, cross a river, cross another borough, then finally drive into Plymouth Township to get to the available land that they were able to find. That's why you see 13 locations for LMSC, since they're essentially homeless and have been for quite awhile. By contrast, in Philadelphia local teams get their own home fields without much struggle. I know that mine is a lonely voice, but my dad walked to the Wissahickon when he was a kid and played there. I walked to the Wissahickon and played there as a kid. Now my kids walk to the Wissahickon and play there. I chose to raise my kids in the city, as my parents were raised in the city, and as their parents were raised in the city. I'm just traditional that way, and the Wissahickon has been a big thing for us going back generations. 1800 acres of woods at our doorsteps here, and this is but a part of Philadelphia's 9,200 acre park system, which is twice the acreage, on a pro-rata basis, as Lower Merion has OPEN SPACE, forget about parkland. We use public transportation. We ride bikes to places. For school the kids in second grade walked to the train and rode the train to Chestnut Hill to do a scavenger hunt. The suburban kids had zero clue how to even ride SEPTA. It was sort of sad, really.

[NickleDimer]

Lower Merion doesn't have any land for the LMSC to use. LMSC has been borrowing fields from local schools for years while they try to put together their 'own' fields. It's shameful, in my opinion, that supposedly family-friendly LM Township can't support its own soccer club with fields of their own. I know there's a popular perception that LM has such a high quality of life and offers so much for its residents, but the park system of 100% built-out Lower Merion Township is so pathetic that they couldn't even find land to support their soccer program, which had to lease formerly industrial land way out of the township, where township residents need to drive to the far end of the township, cross a borough, cross a river, cross another borough, then finally drive into Plymouth Township to get to the available land that they were able to find. That's why you see 13 locations for LMSC, since they're essentially homeless and have been for quite awhile. By contrast, in Philadelphia local teams get their own home fields without much struggle. I know that mine is a lonely voice, but my dad walked to the Wissahickon when he was a kid and played there. I walked to the Wissahickon and played there as a kid. Now my kids walk to the Wissahickon and play there. I chose to raise my kids in the city, as my parents were raised in the city, and as their parents were raised in the city. I'm just traditional that way, and the Wissahickon has been a big thing for us going back generations. 1800 acres of woods at our doorsteps here, and this is but a part of Philadelphia's 9,200 acre park system, which is twice the acreage, on a pro-rata basis, as Lower Merion has OPEN SPACE, forget about parkland. We use public transportation. We ride bikes to places. For school the kids in second grade walked to the train and rode the train to Chestnut Hill to do a scavenger hunt. The suburban kids had zero clue how to even ride SEPTA. It was sort of sad, really.

Sounds like the issue is as simple as whoever schedules field times and permits is incompetent if you have over 13 fields and no set home field. NOT some large poor quality of life issue that you are implying. It might even be preferred to have no set field if your team is from all over the township.

Not sure I would brag about having a dedicated home field if it were as poorly cared for as many in the city are. In fairmount park, I've played sports in shin deep grass with all sorts of rocks in the field. Broken glass, used condom and needle cleanup when you arrive was standard procedure.

I don't really know why you brought the Wissahickon and using public transit. That has no relation on your point about soccer fields.

[Malloy]

I also don't agree with the argument that suburban services are wholly better than city services...My son plays fall ball for the 21st Ward in Upper Roxborough and I found out last night at practice that both of his coaches live in Flourtown but send their sons to the city's rec facilities to play baseball with my son. I wonder why? What kind of Rec facilities does vaunted Lower Merion have for their kids? Crappy, compared with the infrastructure we have here in Philly.

Your sick hatred for the suburbs is really getting out of control. (or you must never open your eyes when in the burbs)

[billy ross]

Your sick hatred for the suburbs is really getting out of control. (or you must never open your eyes when in the burbs)

Just tonight I was speaking with a Lower Merion parent about her daughter's field hockey. We're looking for field hockey teams for our daughter, and all of them seem to be located in the suburbs, annoyingly enough. Anyway, I asked her where her daughter plays, and she responded "she plays for the Lower Merion team". Knowing how facilities-challenged LM is (i.e. the township doesn't have any facilities), I pressed my question of where her daughter plays, and she finally fessed up that they play on Shipley's fields. By way of contrast, Philly provides countless fields for city and suburban kids to play on. Imagine that. I just don't get how the burbs supposedly provide such great services. I know it's the conventional wisdom, but I just don't see it. Our libraries, park system, rec system, cultural facilities, summer camps, fire department, etc, are awesome and great for raising kids. Yet somehow Philly isn't a smart place to raise kids. I think people have been sold a line of BS and they just don't see it, because they've been brainwashed. I've spent my life being a contrarian, and I've done well, because generally people are sheep, and when the herd is all running in one direction, usually it's smart to run in the other direction. As Warren Buffet says "Generally it's smart to be cautious when others are being greedy and to be greedy when others are being cautious." You just need to have a good BS meter to see the folly of what the herd does. There are only two ways to beat the herd. One is what the herd tries to do, which is to outwork everyone else. This is, of course, insane. The other way is to work smarter. Working smarter has paid off for me, and I get to eat breakfast and dinner with my kids, to boot.

[billy ross]

N.J.'s local tax bills keep spiraling upward

Are they nuts in Haddonfield?

"New Jersey's dubious distinction was driven largely by the real estate levies.

"They're astounding," said Janice Potts, former resident of a place she still loves, Haddonfield, which had South Jersey's highest annual average tax bill, $12,282 in 2011. She sliced her bill by more than $10,000 by buying a home of similar value in a place not commonly viewed as a tax refuge: Philadelphia."

What brain surgeons volunteer to pay an average of $12k plus per house per year across an entire town, in good times and in bad? At those numbers private school begins to look relatively affordable. We've owned our home for ten years now. That would have been over $120k in taxes already, with no way out but to sell and move. I've got a secret to let you in on: if you keep your costs low, it opens up many options for you over time, but if you spend your money before you even make it, you'll be bitter and wonder why the deck has been stacked against you your whole life, as if someone put a gun to your head and forced you to sign up for an insane cost of living. Money is power, and if you spend 100% of what you make, you'll never have any power, since you've dissipated it away. That's your fault, not society's - you signed up for the crazy car payments and the crazy mortgage payments, and all of the other payments that leave you trying to survive to the end of the month, only to wake up and begin all over again in some Sisyphian trap. Think outside the box, people. Live on less than you make, do good with the difference, and you'll have a great life. Live paycheck to paycheck because you did what marketers and your broke friends and relatives told you to do, and you'll always be desperate. It's that simple.

[Malloy]

Just tonight I was speaking with a Lower Merion parent about her daughter's field hockey. We're looking for field hockey teams for our daughter, and all of them seem to be located in the suburbs, annoyingly enough.

Fact: You can not find field hockey teams in Philly.

Anyway, I asked her where her daughter plays, and she responded "she plays for the Lower Merion team". Knowing how facilities-challenged LM is (i.e. the township doesn't have any facilities), I pressed my question of where her daughter plays, and she finally fessed up that they play on Shipley's fields.

Fact: Shipley = not in Philly.

Here are 19 places in the Lower Merion region to play soccer:
Lower Merion Soccer Club - Field Locations

If you want to make Phila seem better than LM, why share this story?

[billy ross]

Fact: You can not find field hockey teams in Philly.



Fact: Shipley = not in Philly.

Here are 19 places in the Lower Merion region to play soccer:
Lower Merion Soccer Club - Field Locations

If you want to make Phila seem better than LM, why share this story?

I figure with all of the changes going on in Philly it's only a matter of time before Philly gets a field hockey team. Formerly suburban sports like field hockey and lacrosse are becoming more common in the city as the population which formerly lived exclusively in the burbs is increasingly choosing to raise families in the city. I've seen many programs spring up in the city as it becomes more of a destination for educated families. Also, I've never said that we're there yet in the city - clearly we have ground to make up, but we are indeed making up ground, and we have so much potential to make up even more ground as we get our collective acts together. I guess that's what excites me. Philly is pretty dynamic right now, and there are all kinds of knock-on effects of the city's changing fortunes vis a vis the burbs. I expect field hockey to be one of them, sooner or later. Don't tell me that I'm blind to the city's weaknesses, though - I see them.

About eight years ago I took my cousin and his then fiance from a family party in Northern Liberties to Market East, and I intentionally took her through Franklin Square, because I wanted her to see it. It was desolate and scary. I told her to remember how it looked, because it was about to get redone, and it was going to be an amazing place when it was done. Sure enough, the last time I was in Franklin Square it was abuzz with activity, and full of kids, both locals and tourists. We're getting our collective act together in Philly vis a vis families, and the suburban tape that you're playing out over and over again is one from the baby boomers' experience, not necessarily the experience of their children, which is more mixed and nuanced. That said, you won't catch me paying big bucks to live in a 'hot' neighborhood in the city, as there are tremendous opportunities to live in neighborhoods before they get hot and to experience the positive changes with the common folk. That's what I gravitate towards.

[Malloy]

Ross - there are plenty of affordable burbs (taxes too) that have little to no crime and virtually no blight. Their local public schools are better than a large % of Philly local public schools.

It's very odd to see you group all suburbs as one awful entity. Typically, stupid people do that - like the people who trash Philly.

The Philly MSA has almost 6m residents. Only 1.5m live in Philly. Every person I know in the burbs is very happy.

[govtstatistic]

maybe we can hire corzine to help invest some of this revenue

[AsYouWere]

If you want to make Phila seem better than LM, why share this story?

I'd thought Billy had come around along with HG but apparently was wrong. I just can't see any benefit in bashing the neighbors online.

[billy ross]

I'd thought Billy had come around along with HG but apparently was wrong. I just can't see any benefit in bashing the neighbors online.

I'm still mad at LM. I'm not as mad at Plymouth or Whitemarsh as I used to be, since I view them as giving as well as taking, to an extent. Even in LM, though, they have an enlightened trails program that just led to the finalization of the plans to put a trail across the Manayunk bridge, which will be awesome. I still want to hike the bridle paths in LM, which is something I haven't done yet.

I am trying to not bash the burbs as much as I used to, but sometimes I can't help myself.

Ross - there are plenty of affordable burbs (taxes too) that have little to no crime and virtually no blight. Their local public schools are better than a large % of Philly local public schools.

It's very odd to see you group all suburbs as one awful entity. Typically, stupid people do that - like the people who trash Philly.

The Philly MSA has almost 6m residents. Only 1.5m live in Philly. Every person I know in the burbs is very happy.

In the circles I travel in people tend to live in Philly or in LM. I have nothing against places like Jenkintown, Norristown, Bryn Athyn, or Ambler. I actually enjoy visiting those places, because they are places, unlike most of the burbs. My dad's family decamped from the city long ago for Montco, and they tend to be amazingly clueless and disenfranchised. They generally live in tired tract housing in the townships, and I just don't see those places as high QOL places. Sure DelCo has some nice places. I was amazed to see how intact and functional Millbourne (between Philly and UD) was when I walked through there recently. The city has alot to learn from a place like Millbourne - to me it's a model the city should emulate. I had read about it and I had been there before, but to go from one end to the other and to see more of a Queens scene there was very pleasant and instructive of the opportunities we've missed out on in Philly, unfortunately.

[AsYouWere]

I'm intrigued by this town Millburn and will seek it out as well.

[billy ross]

I'm intrigued by this town Millburn and will seek it out as well.

Oops. Millbourne.

[AsYouWere]

Oops. Millbourne.

No biggie Bill thanks for the clarification lol!

[ArcticSplash]

The Jersey tax article is highlighting a long-running and now worsening disparity between the overall taxation between SJ and Phila-only residents. The lower gas prices in NJ doesn't make up for all the headaches of relentless fixed expenses that you put up with for living over on the other side of the bridge.

Maybe as a renter, a place like Collingswood makes sense if you really must have some of that separation from neighbors which you can't really find in Phila except for the Far NE... but the bigger economic push that put more people in South Jersey to begin with revolves around the public school systems.

But if you pay the Phila Wage Tax, you're still flushing loads of money into both SDP and the City's coffers, so you are STILL paying for two public school systems (the failing one and the one your kids go to), and on top of that, you're paying way higher property taxes than what Phila residents pay.

Given how Penn-run schools get the line of peeps standing outside for over a block and the long waiting lists, it stands to reason that the City must find--and can find--some sort of door to open that allows quality education and taxpayers to get in the door, and provides some competition against pricier suburbs so that they'll be pressured into lowering their expense burdens to match what competing areas cost.

Phila's low property taxes by themselves are not a draw. That's because other components that are needed for families purchasing housing and making decisions on where to live can't easily find the other requirements they need (affordable good schools, reasonable taxation overall).



Historically by the way, Phila was happy with a low property tax rate in the 1960s and even the 1970s which was the highest rate of outflow of City residents. That's because the lion's share of employment activity occurred within Philadelphia. That's not true anymore; the jobs have walked out of Philly slowly over time and Philly missed out on a lot of suburban growth that ringed around the City's edges. Now Philadelphia has an advantage with its suburbs--younger people are preferring urban over rural and exurb.

So it makes sense to amplify that with a reduction in Wage Tax that has peaked-out in revenue growth, and offset it by capturing increased property worth.

[Malloy]

The city has alot to learn from a place like Millburn - to me it's a model the city should emulate. I had read about it and I had been there before, but to go from one end to the other and to see more of a Queens scene there was very pleasant and instructive of the opportunities we've missed out on in Philly, unfortunately.

What can you learn from a 1100 person .1sqft town full of shady zoning where you are locked in from the park by a rail line and transit hub?

I've always loved these garage front beauties:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Millb...2,62.3,,0,6.03

and these incredibly odd duplexes where the backs of the homes face the 'street', but the 'walkway' is obviously interrupted by driveways, light poles etc. Oh wait, you like those, right? ;-)

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Millb...,209.8,,0,3.65

[billy ross]

The Jersey tax article is highlighting a long-running and now worsening disparity between the overall taxation between SJ and Phila-only residents. The lower gas prices in NJ doesn't make up for all the headaches of relentless fixed expenses that you put up with for living over on the other side of the bridge.

Maybe as a renter, a place like Collingswood makes sense if you really must have some of that separation from neighbors which you can't really find in Phila except for the Far NE... but the bigger economic push that put more people in South Jersey to begin with revolves around the public school systems.

But if you pay the Phila Wage Tax, you're still flushing loads of money into both SDP and the City's coffers, so you are STILL paying for two public school systems (the failing one and the one your kids go to), and on top of that, you're paying way higher property taxes than what Phila residents pay.

Given how Penn-run schools get the line of peeps standing outside for over a block and the long waiting lists, it stands to reason that the City must find--and can find--some sort of door to open that allows quality education and taxpayers to get in the door, and provides some competition against pricier suburbs so that they'll be pressured into lowering their expense burdens to match what competing areas cost.

Phila's low property taxes by themselves are not a draw. That's because other components that are needed for families purchasing housing and making decisions on where to live can't easily find the other requirements they need (affordable good schools, reasonable taxation overall).



Historically by the way, Phila was happy with a low property tax rate in the 1960s and even the 1970s which was the highest rate of outflow of City residents. That's because the lion's share of employment activity occurred within Philadelphia. That's not true anymore; the jobs have walked out of Philly slowly over time and Philly missed out on a lot of suburban growth that ringed around the City's edges. Now Philadelphia has an advantage with its suburbs--younger people are preferring urban over rural and exurb.

So it makes sense to amplify that with a reduction in Wage Tax that has peaked-out in revenue growth, and offset it by capturing increased property worth.

If Philly can educate kids via the charter model for $10k per student per year or even less (with charters fund-raising to top off gov't funding they get) and this causes people with choices to choose Philly, then I think we'll have found a way out of the poverty trap we've been in for decades. The tax abatement helped by encouraging people (with choices, given the prices of new construction in Philly) to buy new construction in the city. It's been imperative that we use the fact that we have this new population that is much more functional and empowered (and not just in new construction, but all over certain city neighborhoods) to clean up our politics and how we run our government so that they perceive that they're getting value and QOL for living in the city. You yourself are a part of this movement. We've made great strides, but we still need to bash through some of the remaining bad old ways of doing things, like the Department of Revenue, for instance, which is a haven of incompetents (and incompetence), and the pretty much uniformly failed neighborhood high schools. I see us getting closer and closer, though. Things like that nicely done new bridge connecting Center City to the SRT that opened this weekend bring in the right kind of people who can pay taxes and support honest government with their voting, and I get the sense that we're getting closer to a sustainable model where the functional people in Philly aren't overwhelmed by the dysfunctional here anymore, and the downward spiral has been reversed.

What can you learn from a 1100 person .1sqft town full of shady zoning where you are locked in from the park by a rail line and transit hub?

I've always loved these garage front beauties:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Millb...2,62.3,,0,6.03

and these incredibly odd duplexes where the backs of the homes face the 'street', but the 'walkway' is obviously interrupted by driveways, light poles etc. Oh wait, you like those, right? ;-)

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Millb...,209.8,,0,3.65

How to appeal to functional immigrants that are living the American dream, for one. How to maintain QOL in an older neighborhood. How to keep your place as it ages and properties become more obsolete from being overwhelmed by an increasingly dysfunctional and welfare class of people. I've felt for awhile that immigration has a huge place in Philly's future if we're to be a healthy city and not another Camden or Chester. David Oh agrees with me, and so does Jim Kenney, and they need to figure out why people choose Millbourne over the other side of Cobb's Creek, and fix that divide at the county line. I suspect that schools and crime are the drivers, but if the city can figure out ways of encouraging self-contained immigrant communities to coalesce like Chinatown did and Koreatown in Olney didn't that'd be a great step. South Philly is another great model of success, as it has highly functional immigrant communities which have helped to stabilize that section of the city, but they're interspersed with yuppies as far as I can tell, and I saw zero yuppies in Millbourne. Since there are only so many yuppies to go around and Philly is enormous, it makes sense to me to develop a model which uses immigrants to breathe new life into tired communities that are too far afield for the yuppies to be interested in, and Millbourne is exactly that. I spoke with some of the people I saw there, and some were Koreans, others South Asains, still others Afro-Carribean or even African (hard to tell without speaking too much with them sometimes). Entire families were on the sidewalks supervising their kids at play, neighbors were mingling, old people were gardening. It was Norman Rockwell except the people had different-looking faces. I saw zero evidence of the dysfunctional single mom on welfare with trash all over the unkempt lawn model.

[eldondre]

NJ allows you to deduct the wage tax from your income tax so for people who work in the city this is an important offset. if you wanted to destabilize south jersey and get some of those people back you could eliminate the commuter tax or have it only apply to PA residents. the second option defies ordinary logic since on the face of it you'd think people would move to nj since they'd be exempt from the wage tax but they'd simply shift to paying it to nj plus their high property tax. then the relative advantage of deducting your wage tax would disappear. of course, no commuter tax would be much healthier for the city but it won't happen.

[NickleDimer]

I figure with all of the changes going on in Philly it's only a matter of time before Philly gets a field hockey team. Formerly suburban sports like field hockey and lacrosse are becoming more common in the city as the population which formerly lived exclusively in the burbs is increasingly choosing to raise families in the city. I've seen many programs spring up in the city as it becomes more of a destination for educated families. Also, I've never said that we're there yet in the city - clearly we have ground to make up, but we are indeed making up ground, and we have so much potential to make up even more ground as we get our collective acts together. I guess that's what excites me. Philly is pretty dynamic right now, and there are all kinds of knock-on effects of the city's changing fortunes vis a vis the burbs. I expect field hockey to be one of them, sooner or later. Don't tell me that I'm blind to the city's weaknesses, though - I see them.

About eight years ago I took my cousin and his then fiance from a family party in Northern Liberties to Market East, and I intentionally took her through Franklin Square, because I wanted her to see it. It was desolate and scary. I told her to remember how it looked, because it was about to get redone, and it was going to be an amazing place when it was done. Sure enough, the last time I was in Franklin Square it was abuzz with activity, and full of kids, both locals and tourists. We're getting our collective act together in Philly vis a vis families, and the suburban tape that you're playing out over and over again is one from the baby boomers' experience, not necessarily the experience of their children, which is more mixed and nuanced. That said, you won't catch me paying big bucks to live in a 'hot' neighborhood in the city, as there are tremendous opportunities to live in neighborhoods before they get hot and to experience the positive changes with the common folk. That's what I gravitate towards.

So.... Franklin Square:City Parks :: Field Hockey:City Sports Programs?
Or was your Franklin Square anecdote just completely out of the blue?