Red Light Cameras: Goodbye or Statewide?

[mixiboi]

Who knew Western Pa would help us get rid of the Red light cameras?

Red light cameras caught in power struggle | 6abc.com

Some state lawmakers are holding out on renewal because they want it extended to more than a dozen other Pennsylvania cities including Chester and Pittsburgh while a lot of rural lawmakers are against it in principal.

"The question right now is expansion. Other counties and other townships throughout Pennsylvania have looked at the model created in Philadelphia and they would also like to have it moved to their counties and townships," Vince Fenerty of the Philadelphia Parking Authority said.

Philadelphia now has 96 cameras at 21 intersection, nine on the notorious Roosevelt Boulevard.

Philadelphia's red light program is stalled in the lower chamber of the statehouse as the sand in the hourglass winds down on the 6-month extension keeping it alive.

Many are waiting to see how the backroom wheeling and dealing plays out.

[AbortedWalrus]

Generally I don't care if red light cameras are used in areas with high incidence of people who run reds. Recently though, they put a red light camera up at Broad and Vine St, and it's been backing up traffic in southbound lanes that are making a left onto Vine St Expy/Vine St. There is room for about four cars to make a left every cycle, then the light changes red at the Broard and W. Vine St, but that's just when the green for the left turns at Broad and E. Vine St. Before it was red light enforced people would just pull into the intersection allowing 2-3 more cars to get through the intersection per cycle, and because they got the green turn arrow it was effectively impossible for them to block the box. It just seems like all around bad traffic engineering at that intersection that the red light camera has made much, much worse. The left hand lane now regularly backs up almost to Spring Garden, whereas that was fairly rare before.

The odd thing is that I have never actually seen anyone running that red, so I can't figure out why they put the camera up in the first place if it wasn't to get the people making that left turn.

[raider.adam]

Generally I don't care if red light cameras are used in areas with high incidence of people who run reds. Recently though, they put a red light camera up at Broad and Vine St, and it's been backing up traffic in southbound lanes that are making a left onto Vine St Expy/Vine St. There is room for about four cars to make a left every cycle, then the light changes red at the Broard and W. Vine St, but that's just when the green for the left turns at Broad and E. Vine St. Before it was red light enforced people would just pull into the intersection allowing 2-3 more cars to get through the intersection per cycle, and because they got the green turn arrow it was effectively impossible for them to block the box. It just seems like all around bad traffic engineering at that intersection that the red light camera has made much, much worse. The left hand lane now regularly backs up almost to Spring Garden, whereas that was fairly rare before.

The odd thing is that I have never actually seen anyone running that red, so I can't figure out why they put the camera up in the first place if it wasn't to get the people making that left turn.

I drive it every day to get to the BFB for work. I have yet to see anyone go through that red either. The worst is blocking the box or someone from the middle lane cheating and making a left as well towards the bridge.

[gren]

Index - Safety Evaluation of Red-Light Cameras, April 2005 - FHWA-HRT-05-048 Compared to Western Europe we have high rates of traffic deaths. I tend to think reducing that is important.

Re: Broad and Vine, I've never seen a red-light ticket from Philly but the other ones I've seen first need to take a picture of you fully behind the stop bar when the light is red. If you're already pulled into the intersection queuing for a left turn when it's green then pulling all the way through shouldn't give you a ticket. Blocking the box should give you a ticket, clearly. I think you're just dealing with stupid drivers here.

[AbortedWalrus]

Adam, I also commute over the BFB every day. That intersection at Broad & Vine is now so bad that I am thinking about switching back to 15th street instead of Broad, which used to be MUCH slower. Anymore I am not sure.

Index - Safety Evaluation of Red-Light Cameras, April 2005 - FHWA-HRT-05-048 Compared to Western Europe we have high rates of traffic deaths. I tend to think reducing that is important.

Re: Broad and Vine, I've never seen a red-light ticket from Philly but the other ones I've seen first need to take a picture of you fully behind the stop bar when the light is red. If you're already pulled into the intersection queuing for a left turn when it's green then pulling all the way through shouldn't give you a ticket. Blocking the box should give you a ticket, clearly. I think you're just dealing with stupid drivers here.

Maybe I wouldn't get a ticket for being in the box once the light was red, but I'm not going to risk a hefty fine to shave a couple of minutes off of my commute, so I don't do it anymore. It's not worth the risk. The byproduct is that now that left turn is backed up all day.

[raider.adam]

Adam, I also commute over the BFB every day. That intersection at Broad & Vine is now so bad that I am thinking about switching back to 15th street instead of Broad, which used to be MUCH slower. Anymore I am not sure.

Maybe I wouldn't get a ticket for being in the box once the light was red, but I'm not going to risk a hefty fine to shave a couple of minutes off of my commute, so I don't do it anymore. It's not worth the risk. The byproduct is that now that left turn is backed up all day.

Yeah I alternate between the two as well. It's hit or miss which way is better. That last three days I turned onto Vine from 15th and Vine was backed up because people in the middle lane were turning left onto Broad.

[seand]

That really sounds like the timing for left turns should be adjusted.

Red light cameras are pretty forgiving in actual practice. I know the one I go through everyday is timed for when the cross traffic gets the green, not when the traffic you are in goes red.

I agree less people dying in traffic accidents is a good thing.

[mixiboi]

I was at Broad & Vine and I SAW an accident happen there because of that left turn thing. I don't know why it happen, but it happen. it was weird to be right there for it. Because it made no sense why it happen.

So it did happen once.

[gren]

Maybe I wouldn't get a ticket for being in the box once the light was red, but I'm not going to risk a hefty fine to shave a couple of minutes off of my commute, so I don't do it anymore. It's not worth the risk. The byproduct is that now that left turn is backed up all day.

My only point is that the problem with backups there is probably unrelated to a red-light camera. Right?

[bridge]

I drive it every day to get to the BFB for work. I have yet to see anyone go through that red either. The worst is blocking the box or someone from the middle lane cheating and making a left as well towards the bridge.

I'm a pedestrian that crosses the Broad/Vine intersection twice a day. When the red light cameras are on (and they don't appear to be sometimes) it never fails for me to catch at least one red-light runner a day (sometimes more).

Honestly, this has to be one of the worst intersections to cross as a pedestrian. Quite frankly I'm happy and hope the red light cameras stay.

[AbortedWalrus]

My only point is that the problem with backups there is probably unrelated to a red-light camera. Right?

Well, that depends on your perspective. The underlying culprit may be bad traffic patterns on the light, but that is working as intended. Since they installed the red-light camera however, traffic at that intersection has gotten significantly worse at almost all times of day. It went from an average of seven cars getting through the intersection to four or five cars getting through the intersection per light cycle, from my experience, because everyone is afraid to be in the intersection when the light changes. Either way you have a greater than 20% reduction in efficiency in the intersection that has cropped up since the change occurred.

Edit: Quite frankly I would have been completely satisfied if they had just mandated that any intersection getting a red light camera also got some traffic modeling done to try to improve the traffic at it, and they should also increase the yellow duration by a few seconds.

I actually am curious if a study has been done to test whether or not simply increasing the time between when one direction of traffic gets a red and the perpendicular direction of traffic gets the green impacts traffic safety. If there were a longer period where both lights were red it would probably be more effective at preventing accidents than red light cameras I would imagine. The people that run reds run it just as it changes, they usually don't just blow through a solid red on purpose.

[gren]

Well, that depends on your perspective. The underlying culprit may be bad traffic patterns on the light, but that is working as intended. Since they installed the red-light camera however, traffic at that intersection has gotten significantly worse at almost all times of day. It went from an average of seven cars getting through the intersection to four or five cars getting through the intersection per light cycle, from my experience, because everyone is afraid to be in the intersection when the light changes. Either way you have a greater than 20% reduction in efficiency in the intersection that has cropped up since the change occurred.

Edit: Quite frankly I would have been completely satisfied if they had just mandated that any intersection getting a red light camera also got some traffic modeling done to try to improve the traffic at it, and they should also increase the yellow duration by a few seconds.

I actually am curious if a study has been done to test whether or not simply increasing the time between when one direction of traffic gets a red and the perpendicular direction of traffic gets the green impacts traffic safety. If there were a longer period where both lights were red it would probably be more effective at preventing accidents than red light cameras I would imagine. The people that run reds run it just as it changes, they usually don't just blow through a solid red on purpose.

Perspective. Right, I meant only that the camera didn't penalize people sticking their nose into the intersection waiting for opposing traffic to stop. It only penalizes people who literally fully cross the stop bar once red, not anyone in the intersection on red. The fact that people modify their behavior more than they need too is, I suppose, indirectly attributable to the cameras. It would be useful to have better education in low speed cases like this although I wonder if bridge thinks this extra caution has made the pedestrian experience any better.

So, I think the light timing probably does also increase safety but I don't think that means you don't need the enforcement mechanism. The delayed green gives opposing traffic a better chance to look for cars that aren't stopping and it gives more time to avoid an accident if you do run the red light. But it doesn't affect people who are purposefully running the light well after it's red. I think they're complementary policies although, longer yellow is friendlier than delayed green and also allays the sense that the cameras are for income only and not safety. Both should be used especialyl on high-traffic, high-speed, roads with long greens.

[AbortedWalrus]

Perspective. Right, I meant only that the camera didn't penalize people sticking their nose into the intersection waiting for opposing traffic to stop. It only penalizes people who literally fully cross the stop bar once red, not anyone in the intersection on red. The fact that people modify their behavior more than they need too is, I suppose, indirectly attributable to the cameras. It would be useful to have better education in low speed cases like this although I wonder if bridge thinks this extra caution has made the pedestrian experience any better.

So, I think the light timing probably does also increase safety but I don't think that means you don't need the enforcement mechanism. The delayed green gives opposing traffic a better chance to look for cars that aren't stopping and it gives more time to avoid an accident if you do run the red light. But it doesn't affect people who are purposefully running the light well after it's red. I think they're complementary policies although, longer yellow is friendlier than delayed green and also allays the sense that the cameras are for income only and not safety. Both should be used especialyl on high-traffic, high-speed, roads with long greens.

Yeah, overall I agree, except I don't think education would really make people go back to the old behavior at the intersection. If there is any chance that I am going to have to pay a fine rather than wait for three minutes, I'm going to wait for three minutes no matter what pretty much. Quite frankly I wouldn't put it past the PPA or whatever authority is in charge of the lights for ticketing me for it even though it's probably a net benefit overall.

[AllonaJ]

It's really true that everyone has his own point of view about red light camera issue. Well, I heard that red light cameras have been hanging in 21 out of 25 municipalities in Jew Jersey, following issues with their calibration. But don't get smart, Jersey drivers. Your Government is still watching and taking names. If you purchase new autos, you generally will driver safer and stay away from tickets.

[Marquis]

Please to tell me more about this purchase new autos you mention.

[Volanova]

Please to tell me more about this purchase new autos you mention.

Hooray, spambots searching for discussion about red light cameras!

[StrangeTanks]

Am I the only person that thinks these things are dangerous?

I see them at intersections with that camera flash flashing randomly and for what seems no reason. Its really distracting at a time when your eyes should be on traffic and not looking to see what the hell just flashed at you.

[O.H. Lee]

How often has this happened to you?

[BarryG]

Please to tell me more about this purchase new autos you mention.

I'm more interested in learning about Jew Jersey... is that what Louis Farrakhan is calling NJ these days?

[mixiboi]

Funny this poped back up, because they are STATEWIDE NOW

Cumberlink.com: Pa. House approves red light camera expansion