Can Pennsylvania Recall Gov. Tom Corbett?

[raider.adam]

I have no doubt that those hicks who scream the loudest

Categorizing the other parts of the state as hicks is as relevant as the other parts of the state categorizing Philadelphia as all ghetto.

[Naveen]

http://economyleague.org/files/Rev_E...v_Jan_2011.pdf

Lots of yummy data in there.

Whoa, thanks!

The study is for FY2008-2009. It would be interesting to see previous years (i.e. pre-Great Recession), but if not data for subsequent years will suffice. I'd love to see how this unfolds through business cycles, economic recovery (or lack thereof), etc.

I also think it's great that a group like the Metro Caucus was created (I had no idea). Good to know we're thinking as a region and not as disparate counties.

[eldondre]

Whoa, thanks!

The study is for FY2008-2009. It would be interesting to see previous years (i.e. pre-Great Recession), but if not data for subsequent years will suffice. I'd love to see how this unfolds through business cycles, economic recovery (or lack thereof), etc.

I also think it's great that a group like the Metro Caucus was created (I had no idea). Good to know we're thinking as a region and not as disparate counties.

philadelphia's poverty rate has inched up to 27% since then. so it would seem that philadelphia is on the dole but so are the people complaining the loudest about it. other changes are probably rapid growth in north central pa due to marcellus shale.

so, philadelphia area is $223 bn in gdp, pittsburgh was 115bn, and the state as a whole was $553 bn so together is was ~61% of the state's GDP.
south central pa is driven, in part, by baltimore, but also by state government, agriculture, tourism, and healthcareI'd guess. lancaster folks produce, some commute, many to chester county (though I'd guess the umber commuting to philadelphia has increased since the train was relaunched). otoh, adam has pointed out that there's some truth to the claim that philadelphia is a drain since it consumes twice as much as it produces. the imbalance is definitely driven by education (district is state funded) and welfare.

Most of those payments come from business taxes, which are easy to track as direct remittances from oil and gas extraction companies and their contractors, Brassell said. Overall tax collections were about $200 million until this year, when they jumped to more than $373 million. Corporate income taxes from drilling companies more than doubled, to $254.2 million, from the prior year

Read more: Pa. revenue department overestimated tax collections from shale gas income - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...#ixzz1oe4Xm18P

[mixiboi]

If they could recall him for anything, it should be his coverups with sex scandals:

Hershey dinner in question - Philly.com

Pa. governor: Joe Paterno should have done more

[NickTheCage]

In any case, I have disagreements with Corbett's policies but don't think the guy is our version of Scott Walker.

Unfortunately

[NickTheCage]

I don't think he "hates" our city. His daughter is an ADA here and his son-in-law is PPD. And as Barry pointed out, why would he be promoting our city if he "hated" us?

However, he's publicly made statements to the effect that the "real" Pennsylvania is not Southeastern PA, but out west. His heart lies where he grew up, out there, particularly in small communities. I don't think he despises us, but we're certainly not high on his priority list. I'm sure he recognizes how important our city and region are to the state as a whole, but also recognizes the dysfunction of the city government and has an aversion to sending money here.

And he's a modern conservative -- he'll cut spending over raising taxes, even if it's to the detriment of the poor and needy. That's his political philosophy, which any voter with a clue should have been aware of in 2010.

Don't you think tax payers outside of Philly are more responsible with their money than the local government in Philly?

[annie]

the imbalance is definitely driven by education (district is state funded)

All districts receive state funds, just ours receives more (supposedly in exchange for the state takeover/School Reform Commission that has done such a bang up job overseeing things). Families in suburban districts are getting pissed off too as their districts had to make cuts this year and now will have to carry those forward plus the additional cuts for FY2012-2013. Corbett's playing with fire - these are people used to hearing what additional amenities their children will have each school year, not that things are having to be subtracted.

[NickTheCage]

I've never seen the breakdown for where the state gets its money from, v. where it sends it to. Like you, I'd expect that the state gets the largest share of it's revenue from the east, and particularly the SE. As to where it sends money back to? I suspect it's the poorest parts -- rural PA 1st and foremost, followed by Philadelphia. The big "losers" would be the affluent counties with high population along with low poverty and unemployment rates, the most notable probably being MontCo. and Chester, and I'd assume Bucks (Delaware county seems to be more downscale than the rest of the SE counties though it certainly has it's wealthy parts).

But I've always wanted to see the numbers broken down on a county by county basis (even better, on a municipal basis).

http://economyleague.org/files/Rev_E...v_Jan_2011.pdf

Lots of yummy data in there.

The summary is that the 5 County area (31% of the population) produces more revenue (37% of general fund revenue) than it gets back (31%).

The problem is Philadelphia. It's boundaries (11% of the population) produce less taxes (9%) but consume more (18% of funding).

The big costs are the obvious ones. K-12 and Department of Public Welfare. It costs a lot to address an almost 25% poverty rate within the Philadelphia borders.

Also .. here is a list of per capita income as well median household income

List of Pennsylvania counties by per capita income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pennsylvania counties ranked by per capita income

There are sixty-seven counties located in Pennsylvania, three of which are in the 100 richest counties in the country.
Rank National
Rank County Per
Per Cap In House-hold Income Metropolitan Area
1 11 Chester County $31,917 $69,833 Philadelphia (PA-NJ-DE-MD)
2 44 Montgomery County $30,898 $62,829 Philadelphia (PA-NJ-DE-MD)
3 83 Bucks County $27,430 $59,727 Philadelphia (PA-NJ-DE-MD)
4 140 Delaware County $25,040 $50,092 Philadelphia (PA-NJ-DE-MD)
5 206 Cumberland County $23,610 $46,707 Harrisburg (PA)
6 279 Allegheny County $22,491 $48,329 Pittsburgh (PA)
7 308 Dauphin County $22,134 $41,507 Harrisburg (PA)
8 331 Lehigh County $21,897 $43,449 Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton (PA-NJ)
9 390 Northampton County $21,399 $45,234 Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton (PA-NJ)
10 407 Berks County $21,232 $44,714 Reading (PA)
11 428 York County $21,086 $45,268 York-Hanover (PA)
12 469 Butler County $20,794 $42,308 Pittsburgh (PA)
13 516 Lancaster County $20,398 $45,507 Lancaster (PA)
14 529 Pike County $20,315 $44,608 New York-Northern NJ-Long Island (NY-NJ-CT-PA)
15 572 Monroe County $20,011 $46,257
16 589 Washington County $19,935 $37,607 Pittsburgh (PA)
17 616 Lebanon County $19,773 $40,838 Harrisburg (PA)
18 635 Westmoreland County $19,674 $37,106 Pittsburgh (PA)
19 708 Franklin County $19,339 $40,476
20 712 Montour County $19,302 $38,075
21 859 Lackawanna County $18,710 $34,438 Scranton-Wilkes-Barre (PA)
22 905 Adams County $18,577 $42,704
23 911 Perry County $18,551 $41,909 Harrisburg (PA)
24 961 Beaver County $18,402 $36,995 Pittsburgh (PA)
25 1020 Luzerne County $18,228 $33,771 Scranton-Wilkes-Barre (PA)
26 1035 Elk County $18,174 $37,550
27 1085 Centre County $18,020 $36,165 State College (PA)
28 1132 Erie County $17,932 $36,627 Erie (PA)
29 1134 Union County $17,918 $40,336
30 1154 Warren County $17,862 $36,083
31 1252 Mercer County $17,636 $34,666
32 1322 Wyoming County $17,452 $36,365 Scranton-Wilkes-Barre (PA)
33 1417 Schuylkill County $17,230 $32,699
34 1419 Lycoming County $17,224 $34,016 Williamsport (PA)
35 1462 Bradford County $17,148 $35,038
36 1508 Carbon County $17,064 $35,113 Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton (PA-NJ)
37 1551 Wayne County $16,977 $34,082
38 1556 Columbia County $16,973 $34,094
39 1601 Crawford County $16,870 $33,560
40 1615 Lawrence County $16,835 $33,152
41 1651 McKean County $16,777 $33,040
42 1663 Snyder County $16,973 $35,981
43 1667 Blair County $16,870 $32,861 Altoona (PA)
44 1752 Philadelphia County $16,509 $30,746 Philadelphia (PA-NJ-DE-MD)
45 1763 Northumberland County $16,489 $31,314
46 1793 Sullivan County $16,438 $30,279
47 1796 Susquehanna County $16,435 $33,622
48 1810 Fulton County $16,409 $34,882
49 1858 Bedford County $16,316 $32,731
50 1881 Venango County $16,252 $32,257
51 1916 Jefferson County $16,186 $31,722
52 1926 Juniata County $16,142 $34,698
53 1957 Potter County $16,070 $32,253
54 1965 Cambria County $16,058 $30,179 Johnstown (PA)
55 1984 Clearfield County $16,010 $31,357
56 2007 Cameron County $15,968 $32,212
57 2106 Clinton County $15,750 $31,064
58 2129 Armstrong County $15,709 $31,557 Pittsburgh (PA)
59 2190 Mifflin County $15,553 $32,175
60 2193 Tioga County $15,549 $32,020
61 2268 Huntingdon County $15,379 $33,313
62 2301 Indiana County $15,312 $30,233
63 2311 Fayette County $15,274 $27,451 Pittsburgh (PA)
64 2318 Clarion County $15,243 $30,770
65 2336 Somerset County $15,178 $30,911
66 2416 Greene County $14,959 $30,352
67 2622 Forest County $14,314 $27,581

[eldondre]

All districts receive state funds, just ours receives more (supposedly in exchange for the state takeover/School Reform Commission that has done such a bang up job overseeing things). Families in suburban districts are getting pissed off too as their districts had to make cuts this year and now will have to carry those forward plus the additional cuts for FY2012-2013. Corbett's playing with fire - these are people used to hearing what additional amenities their children will have each school year, not that things are having to be subtracted.

correct, which confirms what I said. as bad as the state oversight has been, local oversight was worse. there are no additional cuts this year so I'm not sure what you're referring to, there was a slight increase which the teachers are taking for themselves, leaving funding flat. that said, corbett is playing with fire, but the suburban districts receive little in state aid and are much better equipped to pay for it themselves, in fact, they are since they pay the lion's share of the taxes as has been pointed out.

[annie]

correct, which confirms what I said. as bad as the state oversight has been, local oversight was worse. there are no additional cuts this year so I'm not sure what you're referring to, there was a slight increase which the teachers are taking for themselves, leaving funding flat. that said, corbett is playing with fire, but the suburban districts receive little in state aid and are much better equipped to pay for it themselves, in fact, they are since they pay the lion's share of the taxes as has been pointed out.

Yeah, I totally remember when local oversight resulted in a $698 million budget gap. Also, ****ing unions and their negotiated raises. What idiots approved that contract? Oh, wait...

And stop saying there aren't budget cuts this year! There are!

Uh, the public school children of Philadelphia beg to differ:

Corbett budget proposal out today | Philadelphia Public School Notebook

[eldondre]

Yeah, I totally remember when local oversight resulted in a $698 million budget gap. Also, ****ing unions and their negotiated raises. What idiots approved that contract? Oh, wait...

And stop saying there aren't budget cuts this year! There are!

perhaps you remember the PSD being the worst district in the nation, or when audits turned up the psd paying for schools that didn't even exist...teachers whose children were middle aged and still receiving district healthcare. indeed, with rendell and evans in charge, we basically did have "local oversight." or perhaps you weren't living a city that spent half a billion on "tranforming neighborhoods" and couldn't even provide records for how much was spent and where so no one knew why the money demolished only half as many properties as it was supposed to. or where the waterfront redevelopment was a scheme to raise campaign money. or where the guys in charge of bonds were taking kickbacks. the fact is, the school district shows signs of not having accurate financial data...that's not new to the state run psd, the problem is they haven't fixed it.

includes about the same amount for basic education.

is it wrong to ask Philadelphia to support its own schools? no, it's not. if the mayor wants to come out and say, we want local control, he better be ready to pony up local dollars...but say it, don't sneak it in as a reassessment.

[raider.adam]

Yeah, I totally remember when local oversight resulted in a $698 million budget gap.

The SDP had repeated deficits year after year when it was a Mayoral appointed school board. The state took over when the Superintendent threatened to shutdown the school system. Sadly with the takeover (which is 3-2 Governor to Mayor appointees), the people running the school district were still pretty much Philly political connected people.

Basically though your point is right that state majority really hasn't been stellar. I don't think any Governor has really cared about fixing the school district and left it to Philadelphia's devices.

[annie]

the fact is, the school district shows signs of not having accurate financial data...that's not new to the state run psd, the problem is they haven't fixed it.

is it wrong to ask Philadelphia to support its own schools? no, it's not. if the mayor wants to come out and say, we want local control, he better be ready to pony up local dollars...but say it, don't sneak it in as a reassessment.

Right, they didn't provide the oversight necessary to fix the finances and rather than taking ownership of it, they're going to stick it to the district hard. Real leadership there.

Is it wrong for a city where 1 in 3 children live in poverty to receive additional funds from the state for education? We're either going to fund schools now or prisons later - which sounds productive for the commonwealth to you?

[raider.adam]

Right, they didn't provide the oversight necessary to fix the finances and rather than taking ownership of it, they're going to stick it to the district hard. Real leadership there.

Is it wrong for a city where 1 in 3 children live in poverty to receive additional funds from the state for education? We're either going to fund schools now or prisons later - which sounds productive for the commonwealth to you?

There are multiple overlapping issues here.

The first issue, which I would assume you would agree with, is that Harrisburg needs to fix its funding equations for state education dollars.

The second issue is that the SDP, regardless of how much or little it gets, has to finally fix its book keeping and internal controls.

[annie]

There are multiple overlapping issues here.

The first issue, which I would assume you would agree with, is that Harrisburg needs to fix its funding equations for state education dollars.

The second issue is that the SDP, regardless of how much or little it gets, has to finally fix its book keeping and internal controls.

Right and I'm as pissed as anyone that Michael Masch still has a job at the district. From my perspective volunteering in the district, it looks like they're trying to starve the system on the whole but especially at the school level rather than deal with the people that need to go. The people that are thieving are going to the thieve no mater how small the pie gets. It's a lot easier to fire per-diem and new hire school police officers and nurses than to get rid rid of do-nothing "spouses of" and "children of" politicians and the connected.

[JoeBaker]

Here's hoping he can cut some more.

Or at least cut spending faster than Nutter can raise taxes.

[ArcticSplash]

Pennsylvanians seem to love to expand prisions (jobs) even though every cent is 100% taxpayer subsidized, vs. schools (also 100% subsidized). Typical of backward thinkers.

But at any rate, the Holmesburg Prison is taking up a lot of space since it's been shut down. It's probably time to demolish it and build another "pod" building over there similar to the 4 pod buildings at CFCF. We have an overcrowding problem in the Philadelphia Prison System. Booting first time drug offenders out of there and keeping them out of PPS has already been started with the changes in the DA's office early last year.

But we still have a problem not being able to retain violent offenders and we only get so many slots to send PPS prisoners upstate. If anything, the Philadelphia delegation should strike a deal with Corbett to expand state prison funding but only on the provision that Philadelphia gets 1/2 of those new beds to send convicts upstate and outta sight.

CFCF may be a max-facility but it's really a joke locating a lot of offenders so close to home and the revolving door that's at the CJC. Nothing scares an inmate more than being shipped upstate with severely limited visitation and it's a recidivism tool. I say do it. Patching the 600MM SDP hole isn't going to fix crime rates at all in the short term, that much is certain. It just preserves the status quo.

[ArcticSplash]

Right and I'm as pissed as anyone that Michael Masch still has a job at the district. From my perspective volunteering in the district, it looks like they're trying to starve the system on the whole but especially at the school level rather than deal with the people that need to go. The people that are thieving are going to the thieve no mater how small the pie gets. It's a lot easier to fire per-diem and new hire school police officers and nurses than to get rid rid of do-nothing "spouses of" and "children of" politicians and the connected.

Nothing would please me more than to see most of the people at North Broad fired, the building closed and sold, and the administration moved into the derelict school still sitting a few blocks further north with the wonky heating system and crumbling edifice. I'm really tired of us spending tens of millions on "palace salaries" with absolutely nothing to show for it. We're not getting quality education by paying administrators lavish salaries. And you're right, firing 3000 staff has done nothing to correct administration largess. If we're going to continue to pay these outrageous salaries, they might as well get horrible offices.

[eldondre]

Right, they didn't provide the oversight necessary to fix the finances and rather than taking ownership of it, they're going to stick it to the district hard. Real leadership there.

Is it wrong for a city where 1 in 3 children live in poverty to receive additional funds from the state for education? We're either going to fund schools now or prisons later - which sounds productive for the commonwealth to you?

umm, they receive what, 45% of the budget from the state? sure seems like additional funds. as with most things, the city hasn't viewed these as extra dollars, but dollars to be used so it doesn't have to fund education. it's the same with transit, they'll talk about how people should use it, but use their own money to fund it? forget it, nothing more than the local match. I'm not saying that the city needs to fund 100% of the district, but if the goal is local control and improvement, the city should do more. and, of course, 1 in 3 children live in poverty, in part, because bad schools drive out people who have a choice to move. at any rate, whoever is running the district, or any organization, can't make good decisions with inaccurate accounting. how can you and I argue over funding if the district doesn't even know where it's money goes? as for arctic, one criticism of the district that I've always agreed with is that they're top down curriculum is a failure. there should be more local control. but back to the topic at hand, the new state budget isn't the real problem here.

[Naveen]

We're either going to fund schools now or prisons later...

Don't forget the DPW.