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  1. #21
    sharkey is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    The problem is, once capped, you have to deal with the reality that the area along the Delaware between Race and Catherine really doesn't have much potential. The problem isn't getting there, it's that, once there, it's just not a good experience. Dump all the money you want into the Great Plaza at Penn's Landing and it will never be much more than an Okay Plaza. The Race Street Pier is really well done and a nice space, but in the end it's not the sort of place I'd go out of my way for. The Delaware simply isn't a destination quality river. That's okay, I don't think we need that. If we're going to cap something, covering the Vine between 10th and 22nd offers much more bang for the buck.
    Don't forget too that there is a huge elevation difference between the riverfront and Olde City.

  2. #22
    billy ross is online now Senior Member
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    There is serious low-hanging fruit along the Delaware waiting to be plucked. A trail, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    From Race St to Walnut St.

    And people talk the Delaware over the Schuylkill for three reasons:

    1. Its an open area for the majority of the Delaware. All the areas that are around the Schuylkill are taken already or too tiny or has active train lines and companies.

    2. More people live near the Delaware and can see it(Old City, Port Richmond, Northern Liberties). Not so much for the Schuylkill, where the areas people see it, no one lives near it(Kelly Drive, Art museum).

    3. People can't even say Schuykill.

  3. #23
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    Bob_Head is offline Immoderat0r
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchobucho View Post
    So we could spend a whole lot of money to develop a nice riverfront and Camden could meltdown further.
    Shy of Satan himself buying it and opening up Hell II, I'm not sure that's possible.
    Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine.

  4. #24
    billy ross is online now Senior Member
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    There is serious low-hanging fruit along the Delaware waiting to be plucked. A trail, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    From Race St to Walnut St.

    And people talk the Delaware over the Schuylkill for three reasons:

    1. Its an open area for the majority of the Delaware. All the areas that are around the Schuylkill are taken already or too tiny or has active train lines and companies.

    2. More people live near the Delaware and can see it(Old City, Port Richmond, Northern Liberties). Not so much for the Schuylkill, where the areas people see it, no one lives near it(Kelly Drive, Art museum).

    3. People can't even say Schuykill.

  5. #25
    Naveen is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Head View Post
    If we're going to cap something, covering the Vine between 10th and 22nd offers much more bang for the buck.
    Yeah, I've thought the same thing. I'm surprised there haven't already been plans proposed to do so, since it seems fairly obvious. (Perhaps there have been?)

    Of course, I also think it would be amazing to have a ton of high-rise buildings on both sides of the VSE from 18th to 10th. That would create an epic visual when driving that stretch of the highway. But a) it's not gonna happen, and b) it would be better capped anyway. But still, it'd pretty cool to look at, especially at night.

  6. #26
    Naveen is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    She proposes that I-95 be shut down and the traffic be diverted onto Columbus Blvd.
    Now that's just crazy talk!

  7. #27
    shadow is offline Member
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    bill, Can you define what low hanging fruit is.

  8. #28
    Voodoo is offline ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nytecat View Post
    The next question is, what do we put on top of that cap?

  9. #29
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    couldnt you build that at festival pier for less money?
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  10. #30
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    mixiboi is offline Philly Remixed
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    It wouldn't be the same....
    Graphic Designer, Social Media Consultant. Twitter: @Sdlaugh

  11. #31
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    luchobucho is offline Senior Member
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    Was that rendered in SimCity4?



    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo View Post

  12. #32
    eldondre is online now Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    It wouldn't be the same....
    so what? just cuz its different doesnt mean its worse
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  13. #33
    y.lama is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo View Post
    yeah that's pretty cool - where's if from? I've spent time drawing my dream capping plan, albeit in 2D CADD.

    I was talking to Sarah Thorp from the DRWC last week and she said when they priced the capping it was unrealistically expensive for the capping the entire missing stretch for just parks and capping structures would be astronomically expensive. She said that the DRWC plan for Penns Landing (shown in Inga's article) which involves completing the cap from Chestnut to Walnut over 95 and extending it over Columbus for a park that will stretch to the River was priced out at $150 million
    Last edited by y.lama; 02-20-2012 at 11:15 AM.

  14. #34
    Sean is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Inga Saffron has no credibility with me. She proposes that I-95 be shut down and the traffic be diverted onto Columbus Blvd. According to her, Columbus can handle it because it is six lanes wide. Really? Has anyone ever been on Columbus at rush hour, let alone when there is an accident on I-95 and traffic is even diverted in part to local roads. Even if the City was to try to close I-95, the federal gov't would never allow it. I-95 is the major artery carrying commerce along the Eastern seaboard. You simply cannot close a 6 lane superhighway and expect surface city streets with cross trafiic and stoplights to handle that volume. Gee, why don't we just reroute the Delaware River?
    To play devils advocate here for a moment. I'd argue that elsewhere I-95 is the major artery carrying commerce along the Eastern seaboard. However when you consider that the Jersey Turnpike is really the better option for travel not starting or ending in the Delaware Valley, I'd bet that the majority of long distance travel for both freight and people skip the section of I-95 that runs through the Delaware Valley and instead cross at the Delaware Memorial Bridge in favor of the Jersey Turnpike. Especially since it eventally becomes I-95 anyway.

    I am in no way saying that we should remove a section of I-95, just that in Philadelphia I'd be willing to bet it is not the major commerce artery that it is elsewhere.

  15. #35
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    hammersklavier is offline A Fortnight Dead
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    To play devils advocate here for a moment. I'd argue that elsewhere I-95 is the major artery carrying commerce along the Eastern seaboard. However when you consider that the Jersey Turnpike is really the better option for travel not starting or ending in the Delaware Valley, I'd bet that the majority of long distance travel for both freight and people skip the section of I-95 that runs through the Delaware Valley and instead cross at the Delaware Memorial Bridge in favor of the Jersey Turnpike. Especially since it eventally becomes I-95 anyway.

    I am in no way saying that we should remove a section of I-95, just that in Philadelphia I'd be willing to bet it is not the major commerce artery that it is elsewhere.
    Possibly. I'll willing to bet southbound interstate traffic skips Philly completely, due to the gap, but northbound traffic not wise to it will likely go up the Delaware Expressway.

    95's routings through DC and Boston (along the beltways) show that any argument that the interstate traffic flows have to go through the central city is absolute bull****.

    So the best move would be to reroute I-95 along the beltways. The NJ TPK is one alignment option; another would be Blue Route-PA TPK. I do not think the NJ TPK option is politically acceptable in PA (as it would take 95 wholly or nearly wholly out of the state); concentrating along the PA beltway routing would therefore be a more viable course of advocacy.

    Traffic on the Delaware Expressway has two major components: intercity--and interstate--travel and commuters to Center City/South Jersey from the suburbs. (PA's RE taxes are lower, which bring many people who work in South Jersey across the border.) We can deal with these commuters using a multipronged approach: besides retaining Columbus Avenue, utilizing Oregon-Broad as a viable route from Walt Whitman to Center City, and Girard-Broad from Betsy Ross to Center City. Make the grid maximally connective. Develop Eastwick station into a park-and-ride lot, and a second near the DE Exp.-Blue Route junction. Ditto on Cromwells Heights, and see if such a facility isn't viable on the railroad lands around Frankford Jct./junction between DE Exp. and the Betsy Ross Bridge. If properly designed, such a facility will service the AC and Trenton lines, and the El via Erie-Torresdale.

    Having developed these viable alternate paths, we can now eliminate the Delaware Expressway between the Betsy Ross and Walt Whitman bridges.
    "It was one of those moments that would have had dramatic music if my life were a movie, but instead I got a radio jingle for some kind of submarine sandwich blaring over the store's ambient stereo. Man, the movie of my life must be really low-budget." Dead Beat

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  16. #36
    Sean is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
    Possibly. I'll willing to bet southbound interstate traffic skips Philly completely, due to the gap, but northbound traffic not wise to it will likely go up the Delaware Expressway.

    [...]

    So the best move would be to reroute I-95 along the beltways. The NJ TPK is one alignment option; another would be Blue Route-PA TPK. I do not think the NJ TPK option is politically acceptable in PA (as it would take 95 wholly or nearly wholly out of the state); concentrating along the PA beltway routing would therefore be a more viable course of advocacy.
    Good point about the Northbound vs Southbound traffic.

    I had never really thought about the Blue Route-PA Turnpike option. You're correct to say that it would be the most politically acceptable option in PA though. I don't think it'd make sense though since it would push 95 pretty far west.


    Traffic on the Delaware Expressway has two major components: intercity--and interstate--travel and commuters to Center City/South Jersey from the suburbs. (PA's RE taxes are lower, which bring many people who work in South Jersey across the border.) We can deal with these commuters using a multipronged approach: besides retaining Columbus Avenue, utilizing Oregon-Broad as a viable route from Walt Whitman to Center City, and Girard-Broad from Betsy Ross to Center City. Make the grid maximally connective. Develop Eastwick station into a park-and-ride lot, and a second near the DE Exp.-Blue Route junction. Ditto on Cromwells Heights, and see if such a facility isn't viable on the railroad lands around Frankford Jct./junction between DE Exp. and the Betsy Ross Bridge. If properly designed, such a facility will service the AC and Trenton lines, and the El via Erie-Torresdale.

    Having developed these viable alternate paths, we can now eliminate the Delaware Expressway between the Betsy Ross and Walt Whitman bridges.
    I'd say in order to fully eliminate I-95 between the Betsy Ross and Walt Whitman bridges (which I don't think will ever happen) you'd have to also increase rail connectivity to South Jersey. The reality is between the AC line, PATCO and I'll also add the River Line South Jersey is not connected well for any mode of transit other than the car. This is especially more true for your case where someone is living in PA and working in South Jersey. The "last mile(s)" problem is especially acute there. Just look at all the job centers running up and down the I-295/ NJ TPK corridor. There is only one station near any of them (PATCO Woodcrest).

    While we're dreaming up new I-95 alignments, one we have not spoke about yet that would immediately help reduce traffic on I-95 between the WW and BF bridge (neglecting toll costs) is to route 95 across the river to 676 between the two bridges. Of course this would force everyone to pay the toll in addition to the increase in distance which would be the death of it.

  17. #37
    BarryG is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
    Possibly. I'll willing to bet southbound interstate traffic skips Philly completely, due to the gap, but northbound traffic not wise to it will likely go up the Delaware Expressway.

    95's routings through DC and Boston (along the beltways) show that any argument that the interstate traffic flows have to go through the central city is absolute bull****.

    So the best move would be to reroute I-95 along the beltways. The NJ TPK is one alignment option; another would be Blue Route-PA TPK. I do not think the NJ TPK option is politically acceptable in PA (as it would take 95 wholly or nearly wholly out of the state); concentrating along the PA beltway routing would therefore be a more viable course of advocacy.

    Traffic on the Delaware Expressway has two major components: intercity--and interstate--travel and commuters to Center City/South Jersey from the suburbs. (PA's RE taxes are lower, which bring many people who work in South Jersey across the border.) We can deal with these commuters using a multipronged approach: besides retaining Columbus Avenue, utilizing Oregon-Broad as a viable route from Walt Whitman to Center City, and Girard-Broad from Betsy Ross to Center City. Make the grid maximally connective. Develop Eastwick station into a park-and-ride lot, and a second near the DE Exp.-Blue Route junction. Ditto on Cromwells Heights, and see if such a facility isn't viable on the railroad lands around Frankford Jct./junction between DE Exp. and the Betsy Ross Bridge. If properly designed, such a facility will service the AC and Trenton lines, and the El via Erie-Torresdale.

    Having developed these viable alternate paths, we can now eliminate the Delaware Expressway between the Betsy Ross and Walt Whitman bridges.
    Thanks for this, it's very thoughtful. However if 95 were eliminated in Center City, I am wary of Inga's plan to extend the grid and develop it. Isn't demolition and the creation of vast swaths of vacant land how we ended up with Franklintown and North Broad?

  18. #38
    y.lama is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
    Possibly. I'll willing to bet southbound interstate traffic skips Philly completely, due to the gap, but northbound traffic not wise to it will likely go up the Delaware Expressway.
    Northbound 95 is signed near the Delaware Memorial to tell NJ-NY traffic to take the Delaware Memorial Bridge to 295 or NJTP

  19. #39
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    hammersklavier is offline A Fortnight Dead
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    ...Traffic not paying attention, then.

    Sean, as long as it's following the beltway I don't think the increased length will be an issue. As I pointed out, it would be the same pattern already in place in D.C. and Boston.

    The Jersey drivers issue is one I hadn't thought of, but I can think of two solutions:

    1. Walt Whitman Bridge-Del Ave/Broad St./Schuylkill Expressway
    2. North-South Fwy to Ben Franklin Bridge (underutilized roadway)

    Either way is a viable entry to Center City. The Schuylkill Exp option is also useful for accessing KoP--although I don't think a large percentage of South Jersey workers commute all the way there.

    In the long run the North-South Fwy is just as bad as the DE Exp, but before its removal can become viable both (a) the South Jersey commuter rail network must be rebuilt--this is actually quite easy at a technical level, as the major routings are all either currently in use or have been preserved in some way--and (b) Camden must become viable as an urban hub, something it currently is not. (a) will likely feed into (b).

    Barry, that's an issue we'll have to think about. Personally, I'm of the mind that the lots should be subdivided and sold off as smaller individual lots rather than parcels targeted towards large developers. The neighborhoods this part of the Expressway passes through are all stable or improving (Pennsport, Southwark, Queen Village, Society Hill, Old City, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, and Port Richmond) which means there is a substantial amount of latent development pressure all along the route. Some of the current ROW can be reserved, particularly at Race and Spring Garden, for infill El stops/existing station improvements.
    "It was one of those moments that would have had dramatic music if my life were a movie, but instead I got a radio jingle for some kind of submarine sandwich blaring over the store's ambient stereo. Man, the movie of my life must be really low-budget." Dead Beat

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  20. #40
    qweezyq is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
    ...Traffic not paying attention, then.

    Sean, as long as it's following the beltway I don't think the increased length will be an issue. As I pointed out, it would be the same pattern already in place in D.C. and Boston.

    The Jersey drivers issue is one I hadn't thought of, but I can think of two solutions:

    1. Walt Whitman Bridge-Del Ave/Broad St./Schuylkill Expressway
    2. North-South Fwy to Ben Franklin Bridge (underutilized roadway)

    Either way is a viable entry to Center City. The Schuylkill Exp option is also useful for accessing KoP--although I don't think a large percentage of South Jersey workers commute all the way there.

    In the long run the North-South Fwy is just as bad as the DE Exp, but before its removal can become viable both (a) the South Jersey commuter rail network must be rebuilt--this is actually quite easy at a technical level, as the major routings are all either currently in use or have been preserved in some way--and (b) Camden must become viable as an urban hub, something it currently is not. (a) will likely feed into (b).

    Barry, that's an issue we'll have to think about. Personally, I'm of the mind that the lots should be subdivided and sold off as smaller individual lots rather than parcels targeted towards large developers. The neighborhoods this part of the Expressway passes through are all stable or improving (Pennsport, Southwark, Queen Village, Society Hill, Old City, Northern Liberties, Fishtown, and Port Richmond) which means there is a substantial amount of latent development pressure all along the route. Some of the current ROW can be reserved, particularly at Race and Spring Garden, for infill El stops/existing station improvements.
    With all due respect to those that seriously think getting rid of the stretch of 95 between the bridges is a good idea, you are all idiots.

 

 

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