Replacing a boiler

**radioagony** · 08-27-2012, 12:43 PM

I live in a 2-story South Philly rowhouse that is around 900 square feet and around 100 years old. We have two party walls. I need to replace my gas boiler but have gotten a wide range on both pricing and sizing. How many BTUs should a house of this type and size require?

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for brands? We have gotten estimates for Williamson, Buderus, and Crown.

Thanks!

**billy ross** · 08-27-2012, 12:53 PM

Go with Crown or Utica. I'd probably do a 61k btu spark ignition, but I'd consider a 45k btu if the house is super-tight. It should cost in the low $3k range.

Originally Posted by radioagony

I live in a 2-story South Philly rowhouse that is around 900 square feet and around 100 years old. We have two party walls. I need to replace my gas boiler but have gotten a wide range on both pricing and sizing. How many BTUs should a house of this type and size require?

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for brands? We have gotten estimates for Williamson, Buderus, and Crown.

Thanks!

**stonefly** · 08-27-2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by billy ross

Go with Crown or Utica. I'd probably do a 61k btu spark ignition, but I'd consider a 45k btu if the house is super-tight. It should cost in the low $3k range.

billy, what is your opinion of buderus? they seem to be pricey. are they worth the money? i saw a brochure for a boiler with a hot water heater attached that seemed to be really efficient but really expensive.

(i am sure there are better HVAC terms for what i am describing but i am no well versed)

**billy ross** · 08-27-2012, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by stonefly

billy, what is your opinion of buderus? they seem to be pricey. are they worth the money? i saw a brochure for a boiler with a hot water heater attached that seemed to be really efficient but really expensive.

(i am sure there are better HVAC terms for what i am describing but i am no well versed)

Even at gunpoint I wouldn't install a Buderus on any property where I pay for maintenance. Germantown Cricket Club spent alot of money redoing the showers in the men's locker room, and they didn't seek my advice, because they put in German-made Grohe faucets. Already one of the faucets is broken - good luck getting it fixed. A friend of mine recently had a Grohe mixing valve in a shower - I researched replacing the cartridge, and despite the fact that I took the information off of the valve body, the Grohe supplier in this region couldn't get me a replacement cartridge, so out it came in favor of a Moen, whose cartridge every hardware store and plumber stocks, the model number of which every plumber has memorized. Meanwhile my house came with Moen shower faucets in two of my showers, and my master shower is amazing (I was away for two weeks and I had forgotten how terrible hotel and other people's showers are), even with the original valve bodies still in service, because they're a joke to fix and they're incredibly elegantly designed for robust service. Buderus is owned by Bosch; my mother in law against my advice bought a Bosch dishwasher. When it 'was no longer worth fixing' she insanely bought another Bosch. Meanwhile since my wife and I have been married we installed three Whirlpool dishwashers (actually two are Kitchenaid, which at the time was Whirlpool's fancy line). Guess what? They're all still in service, doing a great job.

The only time I ever recommend overly fussy German technology is for people who don't mind being stranded and where there's no alternative. Crown uses universal parts which are interchangeable; I've put in so many Crown boilers I can't count them, and once I stopped installing the ones that take thermocouples they pretty much never conk out, and when they do it's trivial to get them going again (sometimes the actuator motor for the vent damper gets lazy, sometimes the chimney isn't pulling a draft so the rollout switch opens, sometimes the pressure switch on the draft induced models gets stuck - in all three cases they can be unstuck and you can give the customer temporary/permanent heat while you get the new part at your leisure). There's a reason the Germans lost two wars in a row, and it's not because of how great their technology is. When German stuff is working the way it's supposed to, it is a joy to behold. However, when it's not working the way it's supposed to (which is sooner or later), you're SOL. American stuff still works even when it's broken, and even then it's a joke to fix. That's huge in heating, and in most things mechanical.

If you want to spend the bucks, get a direct vent Utica/Dunkirk modulating 80k-200k 95% efficient boiler with an outdoor reset. I'm dying to put one in. I put in a 100k 90er maybe two years ago and it's awesome. My fuel bill fell through the floor and my heating complaints stopped, and it never needs service. Before that I put in a bunch of Crown 85%ers, and again they just work and never need to be touched. Most of the time it's not worth going past 82% and in my own buildings I replaced pretty much every heater early, so I haven't had much call for the crazy high efficiency units, although I've been pricing out the one I'm salivating over since I have one more building which has oil heat and where I pay the fuel bill; I'm just about positive that I'll rip that out this fall. I've been buying pretty much smaller places with separate heat since the economy tanked, so again there hasn't been any call for the crazy high efficiency units.

**radioagony** · 08-27-2012, 09:56 PM

Thanks so much for your advice! I saw that you mentioned you don't think it's really worth going beyond 82% efficiency. I've been debating 80.4% vs. 85%, the latter of which I've been told would add around $800 (for the Williamson, I think). Is it just not worth it to go for extra efficiency/added cost in my small rowhouse?

**StrangeTanks** · 08-28-2012, 09:17 AM

Wow, 3k for the installation of a standard 65k btu boiler? That sounds pretty darn high. PGW has a $2000 rebate on 94% efficient or higher boilers right now. But it ends on the 31st of August, so you better hurry up and purchase one if you wanna go the high efficiency route. Look for one that has the built in on demand hot water too, then you can get rid of your hot water heater and maybe use your old chimney to run the pvc vent pipes in. Otherwise you have to go through the wall.

A standard 65k btu boiler should cost less than $1000. If your pipes are in good shape and your just swapping out boilers its literally a half day job, its harder dragging the freakin things up and down the stairs than it is to install them.

**billy ross** · 08-28-2012, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by StrangeTanks

Wow, 3k for the installation of a standard 65k btu boiler? That sounds pretty darn high. PGW has a $2000 rebate on 94% efficient or higher boilers right now. But it ends on the 31st of August, so you better hurry up and purchase one if you wanna go the high efficiency route. Look for one that has the built in on demand hot water too, then you can get rid of your hot water heater and maybe use your old chimney to run the pvc vent pipes in. Otherwise you have to go through the wall.

A standard 65k btu boiler should cost less than $1000. If your pipes are in good shape and your just swapping out boilers its literally a half day job, its harder dragging the freakin things up and down the stairs than it is to install them.

If they're such easy money maybe you should go into business installing them then and make a killing? You're behind the times - materials costs are waay up. I'm pretty sure the going rate now is $3,300 installed for a basic job, but I would need to double check; we haven't done any since this past winter, and I suspect that prices are up. We were around $3,100-$3,200 last winter. Given a choice between a boiler and a water heater, I'd rather do a water heater, or even three of them. Water heaters are cleaner, simpler, and less back-breaking. Plus no asbestos, no stairs breaking underneath you, no fighting turns in stairs, etc. If anything is easy it's a water heater, not a boiler, although I agree that boilers aren't all that difficult. The problem with boilers is that you never see the sun, since you're always working in basements. When I installed boilers day after day in the winters I would go days and only see a little sunshine every day. I hated that part of the job - it really got me down.

**StrangeTanks** · 08-28-2012, 11:58 AM

My bad, I didn't mean installing the boiler, I meant replacing one.

That is of course assuming that the existing pipes are in good condition, and your new boiler comes with the circulator pump ect... The materials basically consist of a few fittings, a small amount of pipe and some flu pipe, at most $200 in materials.

I personally think doing the electrical in the basement stinks even more than working on the boiler. Not only are you in the basement, but your usually working in the dark until you can get things fired up.

**radioagony** · 08-28-2012, 03:21 PM

anyone have any thoughts on efficiency, whether 80% vs. 85% is worth the increased cost?

**Ho Chi Minh** · 08-28-2012, 03:29 PM

All this boiler talk has me thinking about PGW's Parts & Labor plan.

You guys seem very well versed in the boiler department, any opinion?

**StrangeTanks** · 08-28-2012, 06:14 PM

Never had it and no clue what they charge, but I've fixed a whole big pile of boilers. A boiler will usually crap out when:

1: The transformer that provides low voltage to the thermostat goes $25.00
2: The nozzle for the pilot light get clogged. Or the thermocouple goes. Free or $15.00
3: The circulator pump goes. $80.00
4: The boiler is all rusted out and basically just done.

Of course there are lots of other situations. But I've had friends who have called in a panic because it got cold and the boiler didn't fire up. 10 minutes on the phone and they can usually fix it themselves.

**billy ross** · 08-28-2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by radioagony

anyone have any thoughts on efficiency, whether 80% vs. 85% is worth the increased cost?

Don't go with the 80%er. The first burned out thermocouple will cost you the $100 you save over an 82% unit. Plus, I got sick of replacing thermocouples on Thanksgiving Day and New Year's Eve. That gets old year after year. As for the 85%er I can't say for sure. We did an 82% and an 85% here (for different zones) and if I had it to do all over again I'd go with higher. I just hate the cold anymore more than I hate the meter cha-chinging away. It's not cost-benefit - for me it's psychological. I imagine that as time goes on I'll rip out all of my 82%ers so I can shut the complainers up who whine about being cold, but the price of gas is in the toilet nowadays. With the mild winter this past year I left my heaters on longer (never shut them off, actually, since the spring was oddly chilly) and I raised the thermostats a little, since I figured my gas bills were running way under budget.

**stonefly** · 08-31-2012, 02:10 PM

thanks for the feedback, billy. i will keep it in mind when we get to replacig our boiler.

**stonefly** · 09-14-2012, 05:49 PM

billy, do you any opinions on Peerless boilers? Thanks.

**billy ross** · 09-18-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by stonefly

billy, do you any opinions on Peerless boilers? Thanks.

I've had good luck with Peerless boilers in the past - they're out of Boyertown, PA. Right now we're putting in a crazy 96.3% efficient modulating 399k btu Weil-McClain. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out. My guys hate it, but I tell them it's like the transition to the front wheel drive, aluminum-engined cars we know today. 25 years ago people really resisted getting away from the cast iron engined rear wheel drive cars, but few would go back today, now that the bugs have been ironed out on the new stuff. It's just a question of getting used to the new way of doing things and seeing that they can be at least as durable when done right. It turns out that this unit is available with a manifold for the injection loop, which should make things much easier. I've got one of those coming in tomorrow. We've gotten comfortable with control boxes for zone valves, which we'll be using on this job, and now we've just got to get comfortable with the manifold too. I suspect it'll be much better than fabbing one up yourself. I need to read the manual - they were complaining that this boiler needs to be serviced twice a year, but I can't imagine what will need to be serviced on it, since it should be all self-monitoring and adjusting.

**satierouge** · 10-06-2012, 03:20 PM

I am happy to have landed on this thread; hoping to get a little input.

We would like to convert oil to gas in our 3000 square foot mixed use building. We have been given an estimate for a Crown, not sure yet if it is the Aruba, Bali or the Cayman, 83%ish, 150,000 BTU with a new chimney liner installed for $4200; this sounds pretty reasonable, considering other estimates we got including some for high efficiency; next year we will probably add a second unit and separate out the the lines so the upstairs tenants can pay for their own heat; I know it would be better to do it now, but is just not in the budget. Any feedback on Crown (Philly!) and price would be greatly appreciated.

**billy ross** · 10-07-2012, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by satierouge

I am happy to have landed on this thread; hoping to get a little input.

We would like to convert oil to gas in our 3000 square foot mixed use building. We have been given an estimate for a Crown, not sure yet if it is the Aruba, Bali or the Cayman, 83%ish, 150,000 BTU with a new chimney liner installed for $4200; this sounds pretty reasonable, considering other estimates we got including some for high efficiency; next year we will probably add a second unit and separate out the the lines so the upstairs tenants can pay for their own heat; I know it would be better to do it now, but is just not in the budget. Any feedback on Crown (Philly!) and price would be greatly appreciated.

What neighborhood are you in? Is your place interior or exposed (i.e. row, twin, etc)? You can get that price down by doing two things. 1) Install a smaller boiler. You only want to size it to do one of the units, not both. You can make up the difference temporarily with space heaters or wool, or by turning off unnecessary radiators. I'm guessing a 95k btu boiler would be good. Also, 2), you may be able to save by bypassing the chimney and going chimneyless with a higher efficiency model. 85% and up don't use the chimney. You can eventually take the domestic hot water off of the chimney, too, and repurpose the old chinmey by removing it and gaining the space back, or by adding in a unit heater in the living space (wood-burning stove, etc) which vents through the chimney. I hate spending money on lining a chimney to accomodate a less-efficient boiler - it just seems like going backwards. In chimneyless you can get 85%, 90%, or 95% efficient, and the price goes up as you increase efficiency. I've put in a bunch of the Crown Cabos and I've been very happy with them, so much so that I'm experimenting with the 90 and the 95%ers, which are bank-breakers but are really cool and should hopefully pay for themselves in increased comfort and decreased fuel bills.

I put in a 165k Cabo that was too small to heat a huge mansion, thinking I could split off some units down the road. However, after a year of dealing with people complaining every time we got into a freeze, I added a piggyback 100k btu 90% Dunkirk and staged them so the Dunkirk always runs first for a few minutes before the Crown kicks in, and my fuel bills collapsed. I was getting killed when it was oil. Then it hurt when I converted to gas and put in the Cabo. Then it didn't hurt anymore when I put in the Dunkirk to help out the Cabo. Plus the complaints stopped. For about $200 or so per radiator, you can also convert each radiator into its own zone. That makes a huge difference, too, especially on bigger systems. I did that on that place too, and on every place where I pay the fuel. It costs more upfront, but it kills complaints and gas bills at the same time. Sometimes I go back and retrofit the zone valves after I did the boiler; just this summer we put in zone valves on a building where years ago I ripped out a gas pig from 1942 and put in an 82% efficient Crown Aruba III. That caused the gas bills to collapse, but they still hurt. I'm hoping that properly zoning the building will cause the gas bills to no longer hurt. Otherwise, eventually out will come the Aruba in favor of a higher efficiency unit; every summer we try to do a job or two to make the winters easier - it's much easier to do heating work when you're not under the gun.

**StrangeTanks** · 10-08-2012, 09:33 PM

My understanding of boiler manufacturers is this. They sorta buy all their components from certain manufacturers and assemble them into their own units.

With that said, I've installed a pile of crown boilers and really like them. I can go to their factory and pick up the unit, customer service is really good and have never had quality problems. I personally have a 2500btu crown oil fired boiler and its done a great job.

Generally speaking, if your going to separate the upper unit from the lower, at a later date just make sure you can get to the pipes without screwing up what you've already renovated. As a general rule with row homes, I always tell people to plan to renovate from the top to the bottom, even thought the temptation is to renovate the bottom floors first.

**billy ross** · 10-09-2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by StrangeTanks

My understanding of boiler manufacturers is this. They sorta buy all their components from certain manufacturers and assemble them into their own units.

With that said, I've installed a pile of crown boilers and really like them. I can go to their factory and pick up the unit, customer service is really good and have never had quality problems. I personally have a 2500btu crown oil fired boiler and its done a great job.

Generally speaking, if your going to separate the upper unit from the lower, at a later date just make sure you can get to the pipes without screwing up what you've already renovated. As a general rule with row homes, I always tell people to plan to renovate from the top to the bottom, even thought the temptation is to renovate the bottom floors first.

You admit to heating your home with oil? I hope you have an oil recycling business on the side - that's the only way it would make sense to heat your home with oil, if you are paying for it with labor, not money.

**Swartl** · 10-09-2012, 10:41 PM

I own a 1700 sq ft rowhome in NE that I rent. I found an HVAC online who I called to come and service the boiler. The boiler is 33 years old and this is the first winter I own the property. The technician immediately told me everything wrong with the boiler, did not get it running or service it, charged me $89 for the visit, and then had a "comfort specialist" come later that day and give me a quote on a new boiler. The quote was for a 80.4% efficiency and 105,000BTU unit. They are supposed to open radiator valves and replace leaking valve stems, etc. The quote was for $6875. This seemed insanely high to me. In my second rowhome I own, about 700sq ft. they said I need a new furnace (27 years old), a new valve for something or other, new thermostat rather than mercury one, and all this for $2200. I am trying to figure out how to shop around for HVAC providers to see if I can fix what I have or really should replace, which I am not against. I also am trying to get an idea of what to expect pricing?