Wall removal - asbestos?

[GoBirds]

I'm thinking of removing some non-load bearing walls in my row house. The house has been through so many incarnations that the walls have several layers. Some have the plaster on lathe covered by new drywall, some have a third layer of older drywall in between the plaster and new drywall. Kind of a nightmare. I've heard that some old plaster and drywall contains asbestos. The original plaster probably dates to the 19th century. My question is, should I get an asbestos co. to come out and take samples? I always see people doing demo in these old row houses and yet I've never seen anyone really seem like they're worrying about asbestos. Am I being paranoid? Any experiences?

[dmun]

Gypsum, either in plaster of paris, or wall board almost never contains asbestos. Wall or ceiling tiles, and of course pipe insulation, are the things to watch out for in the home environment.

I'd vote for a respirator no mater what dust-creating job you're doing. Asbestos is not the only irritant that can cause respiratory distress.

[HomeInspectorBC]

Hello and Happy Friday,

The old plaster walls in early colonial days installation used straw, animal hair and any other thing the installers could find to bind the plaster together, however later built houses did use asbestos to bind the plaster together and a lot of the paint used on plaster walls in the old days contained lead so you want to be careful on two fronts.

Testing can be very expensive so it might be better to assume asbestos and lead paint are in place and to proceed with caution, there are plenty of websites and u tube videos that demonstrate how to remove plaster and lead painted walls.

Asbestos and lead paint can be a problem when they become air born through dust particles and ingested so wetting the walls/ceilings is one way to help keep dust down when gutting a house.

Another consideration is wall and ceiling studs/joist in older houses never line up level as the wall/ceiling finishes were smoothed out by the plasterers, making the installation of new walls/ceilings finishes such as drywall very labor intensive due to packing out the framing otherwise one gets a wavy look.

Good luck with your project,

[GoBirds]

I was thinking of wetting and then cutting and removing big sections of the wall in big chunks with a grinder or sawzall to keep the debris down. Do you actually think it's advisable to remove plaster that contains asbestos just by wetting? Stuff freaks me out but maybe it's just paranoia

[stonefly]

A respirator with a HEPA filter will keep you from inhaling anything.

[GoBirds]

yeah, i know the respirator is a given. But this isn't a full gut job. Just a section of the house we are renovating, while still living in it.

[John Arnold]

Lots of lead paint info at Lead Home | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA , including the new requirements for contractors (which may not be enforced, yet...).

[HomeInspectorBC]

As of April the new lead safe practices for renovating, repair, and painting for houses built prior to 1978 are in effect.

[stock]

We use these during demo 3M Welding Respirator - 3M 7500 Series Respirators . It says welding, but when you get the mask and read the list, it covers everything. Everything, it's amazing and affordable.

Asbestos and Lead are your big things, but lets be realistic. This is a one time thing you are doing, you don't do this for a living. To be hurt by this stuff you have to be exposed to if repeatedly. Think of it like smoking a cigarette. If you smoked one you'd be fine. And really the new RRP laws are there for the safety of children, lead does not affect adults as much.

The other aspect of this is clean up. Lot's of plastic and tape so the dust does not get everywhere (and it wants to), then a hepa vacuum. You can where what ever mask you want and vacuum as much as you want, but unless you have a $500 hepa vacuum, you are not getting everything. Last, TSP that is found in cleaning products will neutralize the lead so you can wipe it up.

[stock]

Lots of lead paint info at Lead Home | Lead in Paint, Dust, and Soil | US EPA , including the new requirements for contractors (which may not be enforced, yet...).

That's a mixed blessing. We all took the course and started to bid painting projects following the guidelines. It cost's more to do it following RRP guidelines, other guys would under bid us. The where not certified. I'd explain it to the homeowner and they never heard of it, even though I gave them the EPA handbook.

The EPA is not advertising this enough to the homeowner, which they need to do first so the homeowner can expect a higher bid. Then they need to start handing warnings out to contractors, then fines. None of this is being done.

Another thing is why am I responsible for it? I have to assume the liability on my insurance. I do not own the home, did not put the paint up, am being paid by the owner etc... The liability should be on the original installer or owner.

Trying to do this following the guidelines also breaks many OSHA guidelines, so I could get fined either way. They want me to put ladders on top of plastic that is sitting on grass, do you know how slippery that would be? Same for roofs, plastic on top of a roof while we walk on it! Crazy!!!

Who ever wrote this law sits in a windowless room in a basement in DC and has no idea how the world works.

Sorry for the rant....

[HomeInspectorBC]

Actually the RRP laws are there for everyone, children are more effected because the lead dust ends up on the floor where children/infants are most likely to encounter lead dust then their adult counterparts.

[stock]

Actually the RRP laws are there for everyone, children are more effected because the lead dust ends up on the floor where children/infants are most likely to encounter lead dust then their adult counterparts.

"lead does not affect adults as much." is what I said. Of course if affects adults but our brains have already developed. It is a big problem for dogs/cats as well...

[HomeInspectorBC]

Stock your first post made it sound as if there are no children in the house then there are no worries/concerns. How can you expect people to pay higher prices for lead safe practices when you downplay the importance of the regulations yourself.

[Eastcoast]

Having done a fair amount of this work as a diy'er I will second and third the suggestion of tons of plastic tarp and tape, everywhere, if it doesn't look like a scene from a disaster movie with an airborne pathogen you need more...

Fans: If the area you are working in allows for cross ventilation I would throw a couple cheapo box fans in the front windows and in the back windows. Pull air in thru the front and exhaust out the back. Keep the rest of the windows and doors in the house closed tight, you are essentially looking to create a wind tunnel that will suck all the dust out.

[stock]

Stock your first post made it sound as if there are no children in the house then there are no worries/concerns. How can you expect people to pay higher prices for lead safe practices when you downplay the importance of the regulations yourself.

That's another problem with the law. The homeowner is free to demo and do as they wish, no regulations, but if a contractor does it, we have to follow all the rules. This post is about a homeowner doing it themselves, so they are exempt...

[GoBirds]

Thanks for all the replies. FWIW, yes, there are children living in the house, thus, i'm being very cautious. Still don't know how go about this. Thinking I might have the walls tested by an asbestos company. I'm curious as to whether the outer-layer of the walls being new drywall will "seal-in" the lead/asbestos if I remove large sections. I realize that i'd be creating dust when cutting into the wall, but maybe it would minimize that contamination? Just thinking out loud. Again, I feel like there's plenty of people who have ripped out lots of walls containing asbestos plaster/drywall and just had no idea. I kind of wish I still didn't know so I could just ignore it and go at it.

[stock]

Thanks for all the replies. FWIW, yes, there are children living in the house, thus, i'm being very cautious. Still don't know how go about this. Thinking I might have the walls tested by an asbestos company. I'm curious as to whether the outer-layer of the walls being new drywall will "seal-in" the lead/asbestos if I remove large sections. I realize that i'd be creating dust when cutting into the wall, but maybe it would minimize that contamination? Just thinking out loud. Again, I feel like there's plenty of people who have ripped out lots of walls containing asbestos plaster/drywall and just had no idea. I kind of wish I still didn't know so I could just ignore it and go at it.

I would assume you have asbestos, but don't have it tested. There is issue that once something is tested by a certified company for asbestos and lead, the report is attached to your home. When you go to sell, this report comes up. Now we all have asbestos and lead paint in our old Philly homes, but we don't have an official report, so it's a non issue. Just food for thought.

[GoBirds]

I would assume you have asbestos, but don't have it tested. There is issue that once something is tested by a certified company for asbestos and lead, the report is attached to your home. When you go to sell, this report comes up. Now we all have asbestos and lead paint in our old Philly homes, but we don't have an official report, so it's a non issue. Just food for thought.

Thanks for the advice. But, if I assume I have asbestos, wouldn't I have to get a professional company to remove it, which I assume involves a test? Is it really safe to tape up some plastic, put a fan in the window and start ripping down walls if it contains asbestos?

[Eastcoast]

Thanks for the advice. But, if I assume I have asbestos, wouldn't I have to get a professional company to remove it, which I assume involves a test? Is it really safe to tape up some plastic, put a fan in the window and start ripping down walls if it contains asbestos?

Good point, perhaps if you light your house on fire you can break this impasse...if the house burns to the ground you won't have to remove the wall, if the house doesn't burn you have a great deal of asbestos in there and you should call an abatement company. Win, win really!

[whatever]

"lead does not affect adults as much." is what I said. Of course if affects adults but our brains have already developed. It is a big problem for dogs/cats as well...

yes that has been my experience. One cat died and the other is very ill with lung distress. My lung pain gets worse every year since the demolition without permits of old brick coals bins, an old company store and the excavation of three old broke down row homes stuffed in the basements directly adjacent to my house, dug up within two feet of my home and zero dust control. There were bricks everywhere. It was a Masonry Company known for it's illegal chemical dumping. They sort of a mini car junk yard. Gasoline tanks with the old leaded gas for coal trucks. Then the excavation without permits and all that dust on a site that had acid vats and oil dumping and other solvents. Years worth of stuff from the railroad that had always been and industrial offload. No Environmental Phase 1 report at Title transaction. And everything on top of a creek going under homes. Several ER hospital visit for breathing help since the demolition started and the constricted gets worse very year as does for my cat- the one that is still alive but may not be for long.

Lead dust is easily encountered when it's dug up and thrown up in the air. Philadelphia is has high lead levels in the dirt, especially on industrial sites and near historical industrial rail off sites.

This was always a haz mat emergency which EMAN, air management, Planning, Zoning, public health, PWD, License and Inspections and City Council and 9th Ward Democratic committee, Dwight Evans, LeAnna Washington and the guys at the Mt Airy Rentals address and Mr Anastasi himself ( now deceased ) decided to hide from the neighbors in spite of critical medical harm to most adjacent neighbors and NW community decided to break law and attack the neighbor both with haz mat and hate crime abuse and denial of civil rights of protection from harm.