Origin of famous Philly Photo 1897 – 714, 716 Chestnut Street in Background?

[Phillyxpat]

I have been playing around with trying to identifying the location, by visual clues, the photo below from 1897 and maybe it is identified somewhere and I have been wasting my time.

This is a famous scene from Philadelphia 1897 from the national archive collection that does not, cannot identify the location of the scene which basically puts a valuable piece of Philly history, a national treasure of period information, into some miscellaneous file somewhere.

Using magnification, I cannot make out the name on prominent dark sign at street number “714” of "Morris (Unknown Surname)(hidden by flag) and Sons", near a “Foster Shoe & Rubber Company” at “716”?

Looking at the Philadelphila Traction Street Car, one can faintly see “Market St.”? and “Ferries”? in the top stained or etched glass on the roof. From doing some research lately I see that the Market Street Ferries, and other ferries were all centered around that location and that was a terminal point for street cars and trains for so many middle class workers commuting to the Jersey suburbs.

I am not too familiar with the old subway system downtown but the tracks bent around I think Front Street coming out of the underground and ended in an elevated platform in front of all those long gone ferries on Delaware Avenue. That I think that the technology did not exist to build a subway into the water logged ground beneath Delaware Ave. at that time. Any comments or suggestions on readings on that old train system that eventually got extended as the Frankford Elevated Train uptown.






I have read that Philadelphia Traction had lines on Chestnut and Walnut Streets. I don’t know if there were competing street car companies at the time and if Market Street was covered by Philadelphia Traction as well?

The scene above is tight in terms of space and with the crowds and seasonal dress, I am thinking of a parade and or Fourth of July date and maybe Chestnut over Market in terms of the street space?

If you study the architecture of 714 and 716 (?) Street, the “714” sign looks as if it dominates two buildings, whereby Foster Shoe at 716 is likely to share the double address and is on a second floor above a joint double ground floor for Morris (Surname?) and Sons.

The two target buildings of my focus have what appear to be cast iron facades, and I think one ground floor is higher than another or that 716 (right) is higher than 714 (left), with an elevated with steps entrance?

In the 1959 City photo below, I am thinking that the cast iron façade, so fashionable in the nineteenth century, got scraped off in the early twentieth century especially if a high rent property on Chestnut street would want to look modern and charge modern style rent. Having lived on and off for thirty odd years in and around NYC, I have read the lament, mostly of real estate agents that scraping the cast iron façade off of 150 year old loft/warehouse buildings lowers the value of converted loft condos in terms of lost historic charm. That cast iron façades in most cases were not structural but decorative to a lot of original buildings etc.








With the image above, I am thinking that maybe 716's possibly original raised first floor got lowered into prime retail street level and the space above is maybe storage with the boarded up top of the ground floor? Cannot get a good image of present day 714, 716 Chestnut Street off of Google Street because of trees in front of buildings.

Also, the interesting thing is the where was this photo shot from?

If the buildings in the back ground are 714 and 716 Chestnut Street and then I would consider the place the photographer took the picture was on the steps of 721 Chestnut or through a second floor window. Have no floor plans for the Quaker City National Bank building to see if there was a second floor as part of the big front door entrance area. Quaker National Bank building was part of three buildings of similar design and by the same architect and usually labeled in photo archives as the “Commonwealth Trust & Title” building, the center building of the "Three Banks" (Quaker City National Bank; Commonwealth Title & Trust Company; Union Trust Co.), 713-21 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia by the architect Willis G. Hale.



Willis G. Hale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




713 - 715/719 - 721 Chestnut Street, from right to left, Union Trust Co. – 713, Commonwealth Title – 715/719, and Quaker City National Bank 721, Chestnut Street.



721 Chestnut Street – Quaker City National Bank



1875 Lot Map Chestnut Street, PhilaGeoHistory



I lack proper resources in terms of reference books, distance and access to city records and or city indexes to identify names and or places of businesses at 714 and 716 Chestnut Street in 1897 Philly.

Any clues, comments, suggestions or other ideas and or answers to this shot from the hip curiosity about the location/place of this famous photo?

[ZARK]

From the Free library of Philadelphia site: This is a 1902 Photo of Chestnut Street, south side between 7th and 8th Streets, (700 numbers) Remember, even house numbers are on the south side of east/west street. FLP - Historical Images of Philadelphia: Item Detail

[ZARK]

From the Philadelphia Architects and Buildings site... An 1859 illustration of 718 Chestnut street. About 40 years earlier from what you may want. Archer, Warner & Miskey & Co. Gas Fitters -- Philadelphia Architects and Buildings and 716 Chestnut street, ca.1859http://www.philadelphiabuildings.org...lay.cfm/110738 There are more at this url site.http://www.philadelphiabuildings.org...layProjects=Go Here is the URL for the 700 block of Market street.http://www.philadelphiabuildings.org...layProjects=Go

[supersupper]

Numbered streets progress from The Delaware upwards to the West.

Your photo shows the numbers progressing lower to your viewers left.

Which means the traffic is traveling upwards, or West.

Even if the traffic was temporarily rerouted, the trolley is still headed West.

(or possibly North.... you are making the classic assumption your viewpoint is looking north, like looking at a map)

Chestnut was then, as it is now, one way going East.

Its can't be Chestnut Street.

Also, it shows 2 tracks. Chestnut has no room for two tracks.

You are on the wrong track. Sorry.

[Phillyxpat]

The direction of the Street car is opposite of the Brougham carriage. There are two sets of tracks in the street indicating two way. When did one way come into use in Philly? The images on Walnut Street for the period at those addresses have what look like to be houses that predate the Civil War. Would Arch St. be two way and that busy?

The images from Zark indicate four story buildings that could have been decorated in cast iron past the Civil War.

[supersupper]

Lots of buildings looked like those.

E / W you have probably only Market, Washington, or Girard (oregon maybe?) with 2-way trolleys.

Remember, it could also be a N / S thoroughfare, or even a diagonal.

It's too bad the time of day pretty much looks to be High Noon, otherwise shadows could help you orient yourself.


People are obviously gathering and hanging out in the street looking downward street #wise. Look for major events that might have occured in 1897 that might necessitate some grand procession and flags, other than the 4th... a state funeral of some sorts maybe. (it certainly does not look like a 4th of july parade)

I'm thinking its South Broad street.

[Phillyxpat]

From the Free library of Philadelphia site: This is a 1902 Photo of Chestnut Street, south side between 7th and 8th Streets, (700 numbers) Remember, even house numbers are on the south side of east/west street. FLP - Historical Images of Philadelphia: Item Detail

Looking at the lot map, I count 716 as the ninth building in from the corner the corner of 8th and Chestnut. Am I looking at this photo correctly? I also count 714 as the tenth building over. With some enlargement I see two four story buildings at the position that match 1959 city photo with 716 with a flat line roof and 714 with a triangular peaked roofline. Do you see that too?

[ZARK]

From the Free library of Philadelphia site; This would be 712 Market street. no date given, but may match up with the gable roof buildings to the left. FLP - Historical Images of Philadelphia: Item Detail

[Phillyxpat]

Numbered streets progress from The Delaware upwards to the West.

Your photo shows the numbers progressing lower to your viewers left.

Which means the traffic is traveling upwards, or West.

Even if the traffic was temporarily rerouted, the trolley is still headed West.

(or possibly North.... you are making the classic assumption your viewpoint is looking north, like looking at a map)

Chestnut was then, as it is now, one way going East.

Its can't be Chestnut Street.

Also, it shows 2 tracks. Chestnut has no room for two tracks.

You are on the wrong track. Sorry.

There is plenty of room for two tracks on Chestnut. With narrower sidewalks back then and no parking per say, two tracks could operate.

[Phillyxpat]

Also looking at track I don't see a second companion rail. Did street cars on narrow one way streets have an off siding place to park or get around obstacles? In which case the electric overhead connection could be in any position is it had to back up in the opposite direction. These cars operated both ways, directions, in some cases.

[ZARK]

From the Free Library of Philadelphia site:, Here you can see #722, 724, 726, 728 on the south side of Market street. I don't know but it is similar styling.FLP - Historical Images of Philadelphia: Item Detail

[Phillyxpat]

You have all provided useful and accurate information.

I recap. Chestnut flows one way east. With street numbers descending to Market Street. The Street car if it is on Chestnut is going east.

I don't see a companion track to confirm a two track, two way traffic situation. Some engineering questions about track configurations to get around possible obstacles.

Maybe it is not a two way street and the carriage has bee rerouted around a parade or the carriage is breaking the law and traveling the wrong way on a one way street to get home to dinner on time.

Any city indexes to show businesses at certain addresses, name of company. Owner of the building, is that on file in City Hall that far back etc.

[supersupper]

You have all provided useful and accurate information.

I recap. Chestnut flows one way east. With street numbers descending to Market Street. The Street car if it is on Chestnut is going east.

Chestnut street is E/W like market. how can the numbers descend to Market. ?????

The street car is on the right side of the street traveling in the direction of decreasing street numbers.
There are tracks to the left of the streetcar, and the horse/carriage is traveling towards increasing numbers.
Its a 2 way street, either E/W or N/S.

All those people are standing in the street, not on a sidewalk (in fact, they appear to be sitting/standing on bleachers, which indicates a major event).

Its a 2-way street, and if you look carefully you will see that it is way too wide to be Chestnut, and you can just make out a rail under the street car. The 1897 map clearly indicates Chestnut is one way.

And even if you were convinced there is only one track, the one we see is clearly not in the middle of the street, and thats not likely.



Its not Chestnut.



I'm thinking the parade is related to this:

The Washington monument (now in front of the art museum) was unveiled in May 1897, at the Green Street entrance to Fairmount Park. The event was celebrated nationally, with William McKinley presiding over the dedication ceremony. When the Benjamin Franklin Parkway was completed in 1928, the monument was moved to its final destination in front of the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

I bet that parade involves Mckinley, and it is on a major thoroughfare (him being a president and all). Were there any 2-way trolley tracks in the area of Green and Fairmount, before the creation of the Parkway proper? Yes, i bet there were.

In fact, I bet thats Mckinley's posse (as indicated by the dapper fellow (no thats not Mckinley...) in the horse and carriage- the trolley peeps are bystanders) traveling from Reading Railroad or the Penn Railaroad station at 15th Broad, traveling west to the monument, but the low nuumbers would not jive with that.

so

He's coming from the Balt/Ohio Railroad Station at 24th and Chestnut traveling north, just north of Market when the numbers would be increasing while going north. Look there.

[supersupper]

from this guy, The Cable Car Home Page - Cable Car Lines in Pennsylvania shows that line crossing 7th at Market.

crossings:
Intersection Company Status
7th/Market PTC inferior
9th/Market PTC inferior
7th/Spring Garden PTC ?
line: Market Street

opened: 26-Jan-1885. Market Street from 20th Street to 41st Street to about Haverford Street.

opened: 30-Jun-1885. Market Street from 20th to City Hall. Around City Hall tp Front Street.

revised: 1889. Market Street from Front to Delaware.

powerhouse: 19th and Market.

grip: Low and Grim (really) top grip

gauge: 5'2 1/2"

cars: grip and trailer trains

turntables: loops

crossings:
Intersection Company Status
7th/Market PTC superior
9th/Market PTC superior

It was also running to where the George Washington Memorial was first installed, tying back to my idea about Mckinley (unfortunately teh street #s don't coroborate that):

On 07-Apr-1883, cable operation began on Columbia Avenue, from Twenty-third Street to the east entrance of Fairmount Park. Unlike a typical San Francisco iron and brick or concrete conduit, the Columbia Avenue conduit was made entirely of wrought iron and resembled a slotted pipe. The test line did not work very well; it closed after a short time, but the company was happy enough to push on.



_______

Its also possible this is not a photo in Philadelphia, which probably looked alot like Philly in those days.

Did traction cars ever end up in Camden? This photo is labled by the cable car guy as a Philadelphia traction car at the foot of market at the Camden Ferry Terminal.


Googling Fosters with that in mind brings us to this: "Fosters Shoe and Rubber Co" was a company registered in Camden, existing only and exactly between 1895 and 1899. And because they have Trade Mark" on their sign, they must be the only one with that name.

Corporations of New Jersey: list of certificates filed in the Department of ... - New Jersey. Dept. of State - Google Books

[supersupper]

And here it is: Philadelphia Traction, on 23rd street, right at the 700 addresses (though its most likely not this location)

[supersupper]

The Street car if it is on Chestnut is going east.

if you look at the streetcar carefully, you will see the exiting handrail on the down-numbered street side (east). If you look at the previous sit I linked to earlier regarding the Traction cars, you will see their pull car fronts are curved with a handrail exiting in the rear only.

So this car is traveling towards increasing street numbers (west if indeed it is an E/W line) if it were a, or attached to a, push car. But that wouldn't make sense considering the rail on the other side (unless there were two rails in the same direction), so assuming all trolley cars travel on the right side, it must be just sitting there detached from its pull car (unless their pull cars also push).

[Phillyxpat]

A lot of goods points some of which I am still trying to conceptualize.

As far as foster shoe and rubber in Camden, maybe a manufacturer or maybe a registration of a company in NJ with the best deal in corporations like Delaware today.

My original reaction to the photo is a thought from my youth where concentrations of wholesalers inhabited the same neighborhood and I am thinking of Arch st. not as in this photo but in memory where street to street used to have it own wholesalers of similar specialities. Looking at the Chestnut and 7th st thing, I see too many banks on the map. Am wondering where all the rubber wholesalers used to have their turf in Philly.

[CHIOSSO]

Title: Street scene, Philadelphia, Pa.
Creator(s): B.W. Kilburn Company., Benjamin W. Kilburn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Date Created/Published: Littleton, N.H. : Photographed and published by B.W. Kilburn, c1897.
Medium: 1 photoprint on stereo card : stereograph.
Reproduction Number: LC-USZ62-98866 (b&w film copy neg.)
Rights Advisory: No known restrictions on publication.

Call Number: STEREO U.S. GEOG FILE - Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--Streets <item> [P&P]
Notes:
12253C2 U.S. Copyright Office.
No. 11430
Subjects:
City & town life--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--1890-1900.
Traffic congestion--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--1890-1900.
Format:
Stereographs--1890-1900.
Collections:
Stereograph Cards
Bookmark This Record:
Street scene, Philadelphia, Pa.
View the MARC Record for this item
Street scene, Philadelphia, Pa.

[ZARK]

This is really good CHIOSSO, But still no location is given, amazing..

[Phillyxpat]

Without discounting all the work supersupper put into assembling a lot of valid technical data and valuable historic insight, I may be going off on a tangent but maybe, just maybe since Chiosso has shown that this photo was a marketed product and it makes me think how good “photoshop” was (?) in 1890 for professional photographers. I say 1890 in that the official “1897” date is put into question by the 1890-1900 label.

I thought that the shot was one of those lucky shots with all the many elements coming together in a one deal only opportunity and with a fast shutter.

Which makes me think of what I first thought was odd, the style of font of the “Market St.” “Ferries” in the top windows of the street car. Are they stylized, (uneven) in the fashion of the day and painted or etched that way or are they hand painted in by a professional photographer?





Just a thought. Everybody in that photo is completely ignoring the Brougham style carriage which were like the Rolls Royces of their day. I once saw J P Morgan’s Brougham in a traveling transportation museum show in Manhattan and it was a work of Art and still Sexy a hundred years later.





Brougham (carriage) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Brewster & Co. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Brewster kept records of all family crests and colors of its customers. The Astors' was a blue, J. P. Morgan's dark green, and the Vanderbilts' was a shade of maroon. These reserved colors would sometimes make it difficult for new customers to choose a body color.

Brewster formulated a secret oil-based finish, which required much less maintenance than varnishes used at the time. Other firms tried and failed to duplicate it.

Which makes me think that the people who could afford strereo-viewers wanted to see expensive exotic things. That a photographer or a manufacturer of the stereo-viewers could have painted in a Philadelphia Traction label in a product marketed in a locale like Philly. And that maybe if another one of these stereo negatives shows up at an auction, it might just say St. Louis Car Company or such on a “Street scene of St. Louis” stereo photo card.

That the street scene could be Philly, or Brooklyn or Pittsburgh. That the flag draped over a critical piece of information as in the” Morris (Surname?) and Sons” sign was intentionally painted in or photo shopped in to reuse a photo from another city. That the flag is full and stiff while all other flags are active in a wind?

If that is all true and other evidence shows up to prove the above, then the photo is not so much historical data as I thought of and critical so much as it is decorative art. An Elvis portrait painted on velvet as opposed to a real Picasso.