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  1. #1
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Default Greece (and Eurpoe) is Really Hitting That Point ..

    ekathimerini.com | Construction activity is crumbling

    In November 2012, total activity dropped 66.6 percent year-on-year in terms of building permits, 63.3 percent in terms of surface area and 65.4 percent in terms of volume."
    Four out of 10 Greeks told the same survey that they no longer have any disposable money left after covering their basic needs, which is the highest rate ever recorded in Greece and the biggest in the October-December period in Europe. A year earlier (in Q4 2011) that rate had stood at 34 percent and in Q4 of 2010 it had been at 25 percent."
    With unemployment soaring to unprecedented levels, it comes as no surprise that finding and/or keeping a job constitutes the greatest concern among Greeks, which, at a rate of 44 percent, is among the highest in the world. The state of the economy ranks second, at 38 percent, debts are third at 26 percent and the increasing level of utility bills are fourth, on 21 percent.

    Shrinking disposable incomes combined with insecurity have led to a change in Greeks' shopping habits, with 77 percent stating they have curtailed spending on entertainment outside the home, 67 percent saying they choose cheaper commodities (mostly own-label supermarket products) and more than half (54 percent) say they have cut down on fuel and electricity.

    ekathimerini.com | PPC losing millions due to power theft
    he phenomenon of electricity theft has grown out of control due to the economic crisis and the inability of many to pay their bills.

    While before the crisis power theft was only seen in certain downgraded areas such as Roma settlements, it has now spread across the country and into expensive areas too, including the northern suburbs of Athens.

    Officials at the Hellenic Electrical Energy Distribution Network Operator (DEDDIE) estimate that the turnover from electricity theft at businesses alone has quadrupled within just one year, climbing from 10 million euros in 2011 to 40 million in 2012.

    The methods employed to steal power vary although authorities believe that in many cases electricians are paid to carry out the illicit connection. Public Power Corporation’s data on its lost income have been compiled from checks on corporate supplies, as there are no inspectors available to conduct random checks on household meters.

    “Unfortunately [the illegal] connections are conducted in such a way that cannot be noticed by inspectors who check the meters once every four months,” a DEDDIE official told Kathimerini. “We have information about con artists who have made electricity theft their profession, but this information is not sufficient for us to catch them.”

  2. #2
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    And yet posters have claimed numerous times that Europe was "turning the corner" because the ECB printed some more Euros and the same will happen here in America. Here is another example from months back ..

    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal are going to have a bumpy road dealing with austerity. Germany is going to have a bumpy road dealing with the fact that shared open markets and political stability means sharing the burden of soverign debt bailouts and an increasingly unified set of banking rules.

    Someday you will be old and poor Nick and you probably think back about the glee you took in the suffering of others with some regret.

    If you don't want the personal hostility stop being such an ass about posting my name.
    And one day you will be old and you will realize non-free market based economic policies are pure evil. We see Greece but lets discuss what they are doing in France and Italia.

    The Frogs are proposing capital controls. No cash transactions to be permitted for anything over $1K Euro.
    Italia already has legislated a capital controls and many want to move it down to $300 Euro.

    These idiot socialists still do not realize that the more one taxes another the more likely they are to avoid taxes. Sound familiar .. lulz

  3. #3
    Politburo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    And yet posters have claimed numerous times that Europe was "turning the corner" because the ECB printed some more Euros and the same will happen here in America. Here is another example from months back ..
    The quote presented does not seem to say this, and nowhere is the phrase "turning the corner" used. The only Europe-related thread that phrase appears on is this one. Those little lines have a specific meaning.

  4. #4
    Eastcoast is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    And yet posters have claimed numerous times that Europe was "turning the corner" because the ECB printed some more Euros and the same will happen here in America. Here is another example from months back ..
    I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks Europe is turning a corner, it's going to be flatlined for years to come. Hell if Greece had pulled out of the EU they would probably be seeing a nice tourism bump from depressed pricing rather than cutting down their forests for fuel.

  5. #5
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    FWIW. I too think they are going to have a very, very slow recovery for years to come - mostly because of Germany's feet dragging to cut deal that traded more ECB Euros for more centralized monetary control and because of sticking, stupidly, to austerity, austerity, austerity. It was bad financial oversight that caused the first problem, but the stubborn adherence Austrian-style austerity policies mostly from Germany are what has put the EU as a whole back into recession.

    So while I agree they have serious problems, Nick basically proposes the exact same austerity policies that are causing them to go back into a second recession currently.

  6. #6
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politburo View Post
    The quote presented does not seem to say this, and nowhere is the phrase "turning the corner" used. The only Europe-related thread that phrase appears on is this one. Those little lines have a specific meaning.
    Lol @ "Here is ANOTHER" .. comprehend much?

    Ask seand. I'm sure he knows what I'm talking about.

  7. #7
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    FWIW. I too think they are going to have a very, very slow recovery for years to come - mostly because of Germany's feet dragging to cut deal that traded more ECB Euros for more centralized monetary control and because of sticking, stupidly, to austerity, austerity, austerity. It was bad financial oversight that caused the first problem, but the stubborn adherence Austrian-style austerity policies mostly from Germany are what has put the EU as a whole back into recession.

    So while I agree they have serious problems, Nick basically proposes the exact same austerity policies that are causing them to go back into a second recession currently.
    You are so laughably wrong and wtf are you talking about Germany’s devotion Austrian ‘style’ austerity and the Germans? Maybe the Austrians over at the GMU will stop crying about being ignored because Germany is really feeling them. Why not take the next step; austerity = pure anarcho-capitalism.

    Does the plot never fit? It's like your entire planet has a nice bow on it because you’ve discovered the key to all the world's problems.

  8. #8
    Marquis is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Does the plot never fit? It's like your entire planet has a nice bow on it because you’ve discovered the key to all the world's problems.
    I want that to make sense, but it just won't.

  9. #9
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    germany and greece are vert different places and need very different things from their currency. its no different here, monetary policy clearly favors certain regions over others.eu regulations are also crippling family owned businesses in centuries old trades from beer to fishing.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  10. #10
    Politburo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickTheCage View Post
    Lol @ "Here is ANOTHER" .. comprehend much?
    "The only Europe-related thread that phrase appears on is this one."

    You do not comprehend, the past couple weeks have clearly shown that.

  11. #11
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politburo View Post
    "The only Europe-related thread that phrase appears on is this one."

    You do not comprehend, the past couple weeks have clearly shown that.
    "Turning the Corner" or "solving their troubles" ... same/similar, no?

  12. #12
    Politburo is offline Senior Member
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    No, one implies some significant milestone has been reached. For example, if I start cleaning a messy room, I can say I'm solving a problem (the tense is important here). If I've cleaned enough to see the floor again, then maybe I'm turning a corner. Note that neither phrase implies there will not be setbacks along the way.

    Regardless of that, it seems you're taking the quote out of context.. you seem to think seand said all of the problems in Europe were solved, and that the OP shows that he was wrong. You vaguely refer to a quote about "turning the corner", but the quote presented says there will be a "bumpy road". The events in the OP seem to be the very "bumpy road" that he is talking about.

  13. #13
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    The word "Austrian" in that context refers to Ludwig von Mies and the "Austrian school" of economics. As opposed to the neo-Keynsian approach favored by the Obama administration (and to certain extent Bush) in response to the economic crisis of 2008-2009. The facts on the ground that the US is in continued (though slow) recovery, as opposed Europe's double-dip recession, is a vindication of some flavor of Keynsian economics as opposed the "Austrian school" approach more favored by the Germans. The fact that the school of economic thought is called "the Austrian school" and Austria also happens to be a country in Europe that borders Germany is a coincidence.

    But go ahead making me your strawman for "socialism" in whatever freakishly unconventional use of that term you choose to peddle, Nick.

  14. #14
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    The word "Austrian" in that context refers to Ludwig von Mies and the "Austrian school" of economics. As opposed to the neo-Keynsian approach favored by the Obama administration (and to certain extent Bush) in response to the economic crisis of 2008-2009. The facts on the ground that the US is in continued (though slow) recovery, as opposed Europe's double-dip recession, is a vindication of some flavor of Keynsian economics as opposed the "Austrian school" approach more favored by the Germans. The fact that the school of economic thought is called "the Austrian school" and Austria also happens to be a country in Europe that borders Germany is a coincidence.

    But go ahead making me your strawman for "socialism" in whatever freakishly unconventional use of that term you choose to peddle, Nick.
    there is no recovery and Germany is not based on austrian economics. Keynesian economics is failing. as it turns out, in the long run you're grandchildren are still alive.

    Mises believed that price inflation must inevitably result when the supply of money outpaces the demand for money. He therefore used the term "inflation" to mean an excessive increase of the money supply and not, as is the common usage, to refer to price inflation. In Mises' view, inflation is the result of policies of the government or central bank which result in an increase in the circulating money supply, including bank credit.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

    one assumes you mean that our massive inflation of the money supply has succeeded in causing price inflation which proves that keynes is somehow correct. of course, without any real structural reform, there are few signs that our economy has improved in the sense that is it no longer dependent on inflation to keep up the appearance of growth. in reality, I think we all know that except for those who deal in money, we're getting poorer, not richer...and eventually the growth in debt that is propping up the economy will become unsustainable cause another "crisis."
    Last edited by eldondre; 02-15-2013 at 12:05 PM.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  15. #15
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    Germany's reluctance to act more quickly to trade some bailouts for some austerity and more central EU oversight on monetary policy and budget discipline from southern European states (to prevent these problems from happening in the future) - which is basically now where they are ending up, though several years too late - is viewed by many as a reflection of the influence of "Austrian school" thought. Though, I'm sure to both you and Nick, German society looks way too redistributive to your more libertarian tastes.

    Monetary policy and social policy are sort of independent things.

  16. #16
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    Germany's reluctance to act more quickly to trade some bailouts for some austerity and more central EU oversight on monetary policy and budget discipline from southern European states (to prevent these problems from happening in the future) - which is basically now where they are ending up, though several years too late - is viewed by many as a reflection of the influence of "Austrian school" thought. Though, I'm sure to both you and Nick, German society looks way too redistributive to your more libertarian tastes.Monetary policy and social policy are sort of independent things.
    to my more libertarian tastes? I don't see what that has to do with anything. I don't recall commenting on german society, just the inaccurate claim that german economic policy is austrian in nature. the reality is the two countries share a currency but little else and that is largely the source of the current "problem." the EU central bank is more conservative, as germans generally are, but the idea that it is run according to austrian principle seems largely without merit since it, like the US central bank, engaged in loose monetary policies leading to speculative bubbles which is anathema to Austrian theory. it would seem whomever you are reading is simply picking and choosing facts to prove a predetermined point.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  17. #17
    seand is offline Senior Member
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    OK whatever terms you want to use as to whom is really a true Miesian and who is not is up to you.

    Geithner's line has been to recommend that Europe in effect "print some Euros" to bail out southern European states but also demand in return structural reforms, tighter oversight in terms of budget discipline from those southern European states going into the future. Germany stalled and balked and the problem worsened with Germany itself going into a second recession just recently because those same southern European states they have been hammering for austerity without bailouts can no longer buy all those wonderful industrial goods the Germans are so adept at making, putting Germany's economy in the tubes as well.

    Thats the gist of this discussion, right? To what degree is ECB should trade loosened monetary policy and straight up bailouts for southern Europe for structural reform and stronger oversight of future southern European budget discipline or whether it should say "austerity first, bail out maybe later southern neighbors" even if it means cutting of your nose to spite your face when southern Europe no longer buys your industrial goods.

  18. #18
    eldondre is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by seand View Post
    ...
    Geithner's line has been to recommend that Europe in effect "print some Euros" to bail out southern European states but also demand in return structural reforms, tighter oversight in terms of budget discipline from those southern European states going into the future. Germany stalled and balked and the problem worsened with Germany itself going into a second recession just recently because those same southern European states they have been hammering for austerity without bailouts can no longer buy all those wonderful industrial goods the Germans are so adept at making, putting Germany's economy in the tubes as well.
    Thats the gist of this discussion, right? To what degree is ECB should trade loosened monetary policy and straight up bailouts for southern Europe for structural reform and stronger oversight of future southern European budget discipline or whether it should say "austerity first, bail out maybe later southern neighbors" even if it means cutting of your nose to spite your face when southern Europe no longer buys your industrial goods.
    it's not up to you either and it's also inaccurate to say it's an austrian economic influence. if the influence is austrian, it's because hitler was austrian. German fell into hitler's hands because debilitating inflation destroyed their economy and their country and they've never gotten over their aversion to inflation because of what happened. you're post also describes the absurdity of that economic model, lending people money to people to buy your products without any indication of their ability to pay it back. sounds familiar. sure, it worked great wonders for american firms for a time but it isn't a reasonable economic model in the long term. these countries don't have shared histories. Greece has always been a basket case, first declaring independence from the turks, just as they were getting back on their feet, they absorbed what is now northern greece (but culturally different than southern greece). shortly thereafteer was the great population exchange with the newly formed turkey. the modern states decided the muslims couldn't live in greece and christians couldn't live in turkey (despite the fact that they had been living in their home cities for thousands of years). Turkey expelled christians who were turkish in a number that amounted to 20% of greece's population who showed up penniless speeking a different language in greek cities, particularly in the north. greece, a poor country with little industry, was completely unprepared (and muslims also showed up in turkey). the country crumbled and ended up in dictatorship, but have never been industrialized the way germany is. I suppose it's not entirely different than the north and south here which required a bloody war to keep together. some greeks still remember the brutality of the german occupation. it lived through 70 years of lawsuits related to loss of property under turkish rule (from muslim) and then the problem of jewish property confiscated by germans during the occupation.
    "It has shown me that everything is illuminated in the light of the past"
    Jonathan Safran Foer

  19. #19
    NickTheCage is offline Banned
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    There’s no Austrian anything here so no applicable comparison. It's funny you bring up strawmans … the irony is rich but you are cracking me up. You couldn't tell anyone the first thing about an Austrian Business Cycle or NeoKeynesians

    You keep using these words yet it is obvious from your posts you have no clue what they mean.

  20. #20
    Marquis is offline Banned
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    Haha, I know. He probably doesn't know what civil means either.

 

 

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