Much of India Back to the Stone age

**Jayfar** · 07-31-2012, 04:47 PM

In case you were wondering why you couldn't reach your favorite tech support call center the past 2 days:

Half of India Crippled by Second Day of Power Failures - NYT

and an older article with an interesting bit of context (found while looking for the obligatory photo of typical rat's nest utility wiring in India):

Indian officials wage war on energy theft | The Daily Reporter - WI Construction News & Bids

india wires - Google Search

**phillyaggie** · 07-31-2012, 05:56 PM

hah-- India's current government is hobbled with inefficient leadership and fractured coalition politics. Even if that weren't the case, most of the time Indian government only does things when it is *forced* into taking action. This power grid crisis hopefully will be one such thing that leads to the Indian government finally enacting some reforms in the coal mining, power generating, and electric distribution sectors.

India is the world second or third biggest holder of coal deposits, yet it has to import coal from Australia, Indonesia, and even the U.S. This is because most of the coal mines are run by the biggest coal company in the world, the inefficient and antiquated Coal India Ltd.

India also relies on that coal for more than 50% of its generating capacity. But this coal is so dirty and the Indian generating stations are as unabated of air pollutants as the worst ones in western PA, which are now shutting down finally. In India's case, more coal-fired fleet is being built, without so much as a fraction of money poured for environmental controls.

Third, the weather most likely has been a big factor in these outages mostly because Indian government gives away power for free to the farmers, who thus don't value it or the water (irrigated from canals or brought up from aquifers via electric pumps)...thus potentially leading to twin crises of low water table/desertification, and erratic electricity usage and distribution. There has to be a price paid...sooner or later. The monsoon has been late coming to India this summer so the farmers are probably running the water pumps more; the city-dwellers are running their a/c's more due to more heat days; all this extra draw on the power grid which is anyway undersupplied by at least 10% at any given time, probably would be too much.

Basically, civil infrastructure and the rule of law is what divides a developed country from a developing one. India is obviously still a developing country, because while it has rule of law-- not everyone follows the rules, and certainly it severely lacks fundamental civil infrastructure or can't keep pace with its population growth: roads, highways, sewers, drinking water, electric grid, the internet.

America too needs to update its infrastructure... to the tune of many hundreds of billions of dollars.

**phillyaggie** · 07-31-2012, 06:03 PM

The idiot government minister running Coal India Ltd, for example, crows about taking decisions in the interest of the people, in socialist economic style. I wonder how the people's interest is served now that his company can't produce enough coal to supply the utilities. Or the power distribution minister, whose grid can't handle all the demand being put on it.

It takes an outsider, again, to kick Indian government into some sanity...not sure the current government will ever get it, though. Congress Party is the one that has ruled over the country like its personal fiefdom. The few years the BJP was in power in the late 1990s, early 2000s, ushered in sustained economic growth and liberalization, lifting millions of Indians out of poverty and into its middle class.

The Children's Investment Fund Wages Battle With Coal India - NYTimes.com

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**Naveen** · 07-31-2012, 06:46 PM

Agree the BJP was better economically...but it seems the BJP couldn't get re-elected without a divisive social issue driving out their vote. What gives?

**FKD19124** · 07-31-2012, 07:21 PM

did they ever get out of the stone age?

Originally Posted by Jayfar

In case you were wondering why you couldn't reach your favorite tech support call center the past 2 days:

Half of India Crippled by Second Day of Power Failures - NYT

and an older article with an interesting bit of context (found while looking for the obligatory photo of typical rat's nest utility wiring in India):

Indian officials wage war on energy theft | The Daily Reporter - WI Construction News & Bids

india wires - Google Search

**phillyaggie** · 07-31-2012, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by FKD19124

did they ever get out of the stone age?

go easy now. considering India is home to one of the earliest continuous and extant civilizations on this planet, it may be likely that Indians were writing philosophy while your ancestors were still up in the trees.

**phillyaggie** · 07-31-2012, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Naveen

Agree the BJP was better economically...but it seems the BJP couldn't get re-elected without a divisive social issue driving out their vote. What gives?

retail politics in India is still about class and religion, I'm afraid. Where it has changed to issues of governance and development, the BJP has more consistently won... in places like Karnataka, Goa, Bihar, and of course Gujarat. And BJP has its baggage as an upper caste and anti-Muslim party, which as you know, is as great a poison in Indian politics as someone labeling you a Commie in America, or a Nazi in Germany. Lastly, BJP has not yet developed a nationally-popular charismatic figure to run for the prime minister's office...their last generation of leaders are getting very old,

thanks in no small part, to the regional political parties and their power bases-- which the Congress is better at picking off due to its historic strength and the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty at its helm...BJP has to keep fighting smaller battles at state level while nationally it can't seem to project a leadership that is popular.

**enyo** · 07-31-2012, 08:57 PM

Must be their lack of culture and providence.

**LUCas** · 08-01-2012, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

go easy now. considering India is home to one of the earliest continuous and extant civilizations on this planet,

While much of the rest of the world progressed, they stuck with the original model.

**Eastcoast** · 08-01-2012, 09:52 AM

I for one blame England.

That said, I blame England for most of the worlds ills, not just the Spice Girls and Jellied Eels.

**MariusPontmercy** · 08-01-2012, 10:10 AM

I thought most city dwellers, or really most anyone, in India didn't have ac?

**phillyaggie** · 08-01-2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by LUCas

While much of the rest of the world progressed, they stuck with the original model.

Whatever makes you happy, dude.

European renaissance is only 600 years old, and it spent 1500 or so years in dark ages/middle ages when Indian culture had its heyday. There was a reason Columbus, and every other European with a brain, wanted to find his way to India's riches back in 1492 when he sailed the ocean blue...and Marco Polo and others raved about Indian cities and culture...

And even in America's brief history, there have been dark, dark, days not that long ago.

These things run in cycles at times... But, like I said, whatever makes you happy...

**LUCas** · 08-01-2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

European renaissance is only 600 years old, and it spent 1500 or so years in dark ages/middle ages when Indian culture had its heyday. There was a reason Columbus, and every other European with a brain, wanted to find his way to India's riches back in 1492 when he sailed the ocean blue...and Marco Polo and others raved about Indian cities and culture...

cool. Thought we were discussing current events.

I don't dispute India was a major influence on the course of world history and an advanced society in ancient times. How has that helped in this current situation?

By the way, Marco Polo was a fraud.

**boognish** · 08-01-2012, 10:42 AM

I love visiting India. I'm even happier to leave.

**phillyaggie** · 08-01-2012, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by LUCas

cool. Thought we were discussing current events.

I don't dispute India was a major influence on the course of world history and an advanced society in ancient times. How has that helped in this current situation?

By the way, Marco Polo was a fraud.

I thought you did dispute all of it when you said that it was stuck to its ancient ways. When there is so much to show that it's not, individual and even societal achievements show it... just one example: the "god" particle recently confirmed by CERN is in part named for an Indian physicist, Satyendra Nath Bose... thus the "boson" and its variant, the Higgs boson:

Satyendra Nath Bose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Societies, especially when they come in contact with one another, built on what's already there. So Indian civilization has given much to this world, and now it is also learning much from others. Just one topic which was highlighted by WSJ (or was it NYT? not sure now) several months ago: specialty hospitals in India are able to conduct thousands of surgeries with more efficiency, less cost, and better patient outcomes, then some of the best places in America. How is this possible? That article had some pointed lessons for American healthcare system... from a nation that also still has the most number of lepers in the world (when you are home to 1/6th of humanity, numbers have a way of getting big very quickly). So, you see, it's not good to paint with broad brush especially when it comes to India.

**LUCas** · 08-01-2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by phillyaggie

I thought you did dispute all of it when you said that it was stuck to its ancient ways.

You are way too touchy. Cool, one guy out of what, a billion? I doubt he's from the same town where they worship rats. Strangely, that had no association with the thousands who have died of Bubonic Plague in the past few decades. Progress!

I will admit, though, no one poorly staffs a call center for pennies better than the Indians.

**Geno** · 08-01-2012, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by LUCas

By the way, Marco Polo was a fraud.

The Indians invented pool games.

**phillyaggie** · 08-01-2012, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by LUCas

You are way too touchy. Cool, one guy out of what, a billion? I doubt he's from the same town where they worship rats. Strangely, that had no association with the thousands who have died of Bubonic Plague in the past few decades. Progress!

I will admit, though, no one poorly staffs a call center for pennies better than the Indians.

So are we going to make a count of all the stuff that every American does, versus everybody else that has done anything in other countries?! talk about moving goal posts.

rest of your statements are incendiary and make you look stupid.

**darthsinatra** · 08-01-2012, 11:34 AM

This is the funniest thing I have ever read about India. Some might find it offensive. You've been warned.

India - Dirt, Diarrhea, and Death - Matthew Inman

**phillyaggie** · 08-01-2012, 11:38 AM

ah, the infamous gutter inspectors report, in the words of Mahatma Gandhi.

see, when I say something so much as a slight negative about Philly-- some local yokels pounce on me, because they feel this city, no matter how ****ty, is their home, and how dare some "outsider" point out the gutter of **** that runs through much of it.

that's how it is with people.