North Korea attacks South Korea

**AbortedWalrus** · 11-23-2010, 10:33 AM

INCHEON, South Korea - North and South Korea exchanged artillery fire Tuesday after the North shelled an island near their disputed sea border, killing at least two South Korean marines, setting dozens of buildings ablaze and sending civilians fleeing for shelter.

Read more:
Philly.com

This morning, the Whitehouse Administration condemned the attack.

Philly.com

South Korea has vowed stern retaliation:

President Lee Myung Bak:
"Given that North Korea maintains an offensive posture, I think the Army, the Navy and the Air Force should unite and retaliate against (the North's) provocation with multiple-fold firepower," Lee said. "I think enormous retaliation is going to be necessary to make North Korea incapable of provoking us again."

Yonhap News

Two South Korean Marines were killed in the attack, and there were at least three civilian casualties, though no civilian deaths were reported. Many of you may recall that earlier this year North Korea sank a South Korean naval vessel killing 46.

**sometimesilie** · 11-23-2010, 10:49 AM

North Korea fascinates me for some reason and I've read several books about them in the past couple of months. My gut feeling is all this recent aggression is so Il's heir apparent and recently promoted four star general Kim Jong Un can pad his resume.

The kid has never been away from a buffet table and needs a "heroic" lineage. This skirmish is probably being reported to the party, if not the general public, as being a huge battle during which the Mighty Kim Jong Un smashed the imperialistic aggressors of the Capitalist Pig Dogs.

The Kim's and favored toadies will receive medals for this "battle" and possibly, since it's about fabricating a glorious past for the younger, a new holiday to honor Un's "victory". This incident probably has way more to do with internal politics than anything related to South Korea or the US, although being a big FU just sweetens the deal.

**AbortedWalrus** · 11-23-2010, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by sometimesilie

North Korea fascinates me for some reason and I've read several books about them in the past couple of months. My gut feeling is all this recent aggression is so Il's heir apparent and recently promoted four star general Kim Jong Un can pad his resume.

The kid has never been away from a buffet table and needs a "heroic" lineage. This skirmish is probably being reported to the party, if not the general public, as being a huge battle during which the Mighty Kim Jong Un smashed the imperialistic aggressors of the Capitalist Pig Dogs.

The Kim's and favored toadies will receive medals for this "battle" and possibly, since it's about fabricating a glorious past for the younger, a new holiday to honor Un's "victory". This incident probably has way more to do with internal politics than anything related to South Korea or the US, although being a big FU just sweetens the deal.

Eh, I don't know about that. I think North Korea attacked due to the attention that South Korea was showered with due to the G20 Summit in Seoul last week. Any time South Korea makes big news, North Korea gets their feelings hurt as they're reminded of just how truly worse off they are than the south. Couple that with the fact that there is probably a new crop of military leaders looking to show their new Dear Leader how great they are, and it's a pretty volatile situation.

The scary part is that our South Korean friends have something like half of their population within artillery range of North Korea. The entire city of Seoul is within artillery range. South Koreans are anything but weak people though. All males are required to serve military service (with a few exceptions) and they live under the constant threat and knowledge that they could be minutes away from being shelled and bombed. Honestly, I don't want any more wars, but this is the only potential war in my lifetime that the US should be involved in, should it happen. Not that the Korean War ever actually ended.

**sometimesilie** · 11-23-2010, 11:16 AM

Your point about jealousy surrounding the G20 summit is probably right on target, but keep in mind they did not pull this stunt during the summit where it would have been much harder- if not impossible- to shrug off. I really do think I'm right about the narrative of this. the Kim's are CRAZY, certifiably so, but they've held on to power for 50+ years now by not doing anything irrevocable. The North is pretty barebones- I mean, not just impoverished people, they don't have the resources to run a modern military campaign. They get a whole lot of material from China, which is really their only friend of consequence and I can't imagine China signing off on a war that would draw in the US, their trading partner and a big reason why they are transforming themselves into a world power. The South on the other hand, as evidenced by their recent hosting of the G20, have finally made it economically and quite apart from any physical destruction resulting from war, it's really not in their interest to absorb tens of millions of impoverished NK's.

This is not to say that this isn't a really serious and scary for the residents of the South or that this can't escalate into something out of control and serious. But all 4 actors here- the US, China, and both Koreas- have functioning governments firmly in control and it is not in the interest of any of those government to have this thing spin out of control.

**drewrob23** · 11-23-2010, 11:24 AM

I read that N. Korea probably initiated the attack because of the recent report from the U.S. scientist about their nuclear reactor. This seems to be the North's response when they don't get what they want and they probably figure that since the West saw that they have no problem attacking, that the West will give in. The big question is will we?

**Zep** · 11-23-2010, 11:45 AM

Someone really f***ing needs to just cut their legs out from under them already. This sh** is getting ridiculous.

Hey China: time to muzzle your dog.

**BluegrassCat** · 11-23-2010, 12:24 PM

North Korea is irrelevant in the world economy with no production, few jobs and a couple of trading partners so they try to stay on the map this way, jong il figures his days are numbered and wants to go out with a bang

**Zep** · 11-23-2010, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by BluegrassCat

North Korea is irrelevant in the world economy with no production, few jobs and a couple of trading partners so they try to stay on the map this way, jong il figures his days are numbered and wants to go out with a bang

Yeah, that's kind of what worries me.

**drewrob23** · 11-23-2010, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by BluegrassCat

North Korea is irrelevant in the world economy with no production, few jobs and a couple of trading partners so they try to stay on the map this way, jong il figures his days are numbered and wants to go out with a bang

Yeah...but that bang could lead to another world war. America is allied with S. Korea and China is allied with N. Korea. Wouldn't end well for any of us.

**Zep** · 11-23-2010, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by drewrob23

Yeah...but that bang could lead to another world war. America is allied with S. Korea and China is allied with N. Korea. Wouldn't end well for any of us.

Which is why China needs to decide whther they want to keep playing pretend-communists to the point of mutual losses or whether they're ready to get with the times and realize what the rest of the industrialized world* has, N. Korea is nucking futs and they need a reality-check as to who the big boys are.

*-Obv. there's Russia but something tells me Putin is probably just enjoying this nonsense, mainly because he's an a$$hole.

**sometimesilie** · 11-23-2010, 02:18 PM

If NK is going to listen to anybody or anything at this point, it's going to be China and China only. China is only going to put up with so much- they don't mind these stunts because it turns up the heat on America- but they are NOT going to sign off on a larger war. The problem is, stuff like this can get out of control and fast. China needs to toughen up on the NK's and if they think they have things under control, they need to think again.

Another actor in all this is Japan. NK has behaved very provocatively towards Japan in the past because of the Japanese occupation leading up to WW2. The Personality Cult that surrounded the original Kim (Il-Sung) was built mainly around him and a rag tag band of followers personally throwing the Japanese out of Korea (and, of course, defeating the Americans). China also has rocky relations with Japan because of the way the Japanese military conducted operations in China during WW2. I'd guess Japan is more than happy to sit one out, but despite what some people may (wrongly) believe, Japan has a first rate, ultra-modern military and is quite capable of defending itself or projecting power regionally.

**Dayman** · 11-23-2010, 02:24 PM

China would not sign off on a war with the U.S. unless it was for a real reason, propping up a two-bit dictator is not a real reason.

**Jackstraw01** · 11-23-2010, 02:35 PM

Let the two countries have at each other. Should SK kick their arse more North Koreans will starve to death. The Chi-coms will have to step in and assume control of NK through a puppet regime because they don't want the NK’s population flowing over their border in mass. They (Chicoms) also don’t want the US & SK right up on their border.

That said; it is too logical for the policeman of the world to allow these 2 countries settle their own ‘issues’ and/or allow China to intervene as well. Should this go further; I fully expect Barry & Co to step into another foreign adventure with our 30K troops based in SK. We all know that a liberal is just a Neo-Con in Birkenstocks.

**Zep** · 11-23-2010, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jackstraw01

Let the two countries have at each other. Should SK kick their arse more North Koreans will starve to death. The Chi-coms will have to step in and assume control of NK through a puppet regime because they don't want the NK’s population flowing over their border in mass. They (Chicoms) also don’t want the US & SK right up on their border.

That said; it is too logical for the policeman of the world to allow these 2 countries settle their own ‘issues’ and/or allow China to intervene as well. Should this go further; I fully expect Barry & Co to step into another foreign adventure with our 30K troops based in SK. We all know that a liberal is just a Neo-Con in Birkenstocks.

And then the U.S. and China can make a "gentleman's agreement" to not secretly supply "their side" with any weapons or goods.

Because that would totally work and I'm sure both sides will honor that deal...

**drewrob23** · 11-23-2010, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dayman

China would not sign off on a war with the U.S. unless it was for a real reason, propping up a two-bit dictator is not a real reason.

Maybe, but you have to admit that N. Korea's action def. warrant a military response and we would have no choice but to help our ally.

**Dayman** · 11-23-2010, 02:46 PM

No, not yet. Not for artillery shells and not until we've spent a few years not-at-war. It'd be nice to let the troops rest a bit.

**drewrob23** · 11-23-2010, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dayman

No, not yet. Not for artillery shells and not until we've spent a few years not-at-war. It'd be nice to let the troops rest a bit.

Probably another reason why K. Korea acted as they did. They know that the American military is stretched then and that the people can't stomach another war.

**sometimesilie** · 11-23-2010, 02:59 PM

Actually a Chinese controlled puppet regime might be the best thing possible in NK. One of the necessities of life in NK (necessity as in, you don't want to starve to death) is black market trade with smugglers who deal in goods/food smuggled in from China. NK's know people on the Chinese side are comparatively wealthy. In fact, it's relatively easy for people to cross the border into China depending on your profile (People who are obviously fleeing, like families, would not fit this profile). Most non-officers in the NK army are paid like 12th century serfs and they make a side business with the smugglers for access. However, if you cross and recross without making a deal, you're going to NK prison camp, along with your grandparents, parents, children, cousins, nieces, and nephews and the border guards will take all your stuff anyway. Furthermore, if you get nabbed by the Chinese authorities, with no bribe money, you're going to be forcibly repatriated and sent to prison camp, which is usually a slow-death sentence.

**hammersklavier** · 11-23-2010, 03:18 PM

You also can't forget that NK-SK is much like East Germany-West Germany during the Cold War. Both Koreas are well aware of their shared cultural heritage, and SK is well aware NK is a Cold War holdout. Like West Germany, it would not surprise me one bit if SK ultimately has economic reintegration with NK in mind.

As has already been noted, China will not be willing to support NK in terms of an all-out invasion. In the event of an all-out war, the U.S. and SK troops would probably have the land burden; it would be easy for the Japanese navy to blockade NK's east coast in the name of national defense. The big issue in all of this, however, would be if SK and Japan can put their own bickering aside to confront the mutual threat that is SK.

**ArcticSplash** · 11-23-2010, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by drewrob23

Probably another reason why K. Korea acted as they did. They know that the American military is stretched then and that the people can't stomach another war.

Russia will not tolerate a highly hyperactive NK not far from its shores. And Russia most definitely can inflict pressure where the USA may not.

I say if Russia asks us to jump, we should say "how high?"... anything to help put pressure on China to strangle NK.