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Thread: Amanda Knox

  1. #1
    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Amanda Knox

    Every time I hear about this case, a shiver runs down my spine. Itís either a case of a seemingly normal and bright college student turning into a gang raping, cold blooded murderer or a case where an innocent girl studying abroad gets railroaded by a foreign legal system. Which is scarier?

    Hereís a couple of links for some recent news and it seems that her appeal is coming up in November.

    Amanda Knox indicted for slander in Italy - Yahoo! News

    Former FBI agent: Amanda Knox is innocent - TODAY People - TODAYshow.com

    I donít know that much about the trial but it seems that the physical evidence is lacking and that the she was convicted based on inconsistencies in her statements. The issue I have with basing her credibility on her statements is that she was questioned through the night under heavy pressure from teams of detectives. If sheís innocent, what can be expected from a young woman who never was involved in anything to be placed in this situation and be able to navigate through that type of pressure without succumbing to it?

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    jizay is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burholme06 View Post
    Every time I hear about this case, a shiver runs down my spine. It’s either a case of a seemingly normal and bright college student turning into a gang raping, cold blooded murderer or a case where an innocent girl studying abroad gets railroaded by a foreign legal system. Which is scarier?

    Here’s a couple of links for some recent news and it seems that her appeal is coming up in November.

    Amanda Knox indicted for slander in Italy - Yahoo! News

    Former FBI agent: Amanda Knox is innocent - TODAY People - TODAYshow.com

    I don’t know that much about the trial but it seems that the physical evidence is lacking and that the she was convicted based on inconsistencies in her statements. The issue I have with basing her credibility on her statements is that she was questioned through the night under heavy pressure from teams of detectives. If she’s innocent, what can be expected from a young woman who never was involved in anything to be placed in this situation and be able to navigate through that type of pressure without succumbing to it?
    They found the murder weapon with her, her boyfriend's, and the victim's DNA on it, as well as bleach that was used in an apparent attempt to clean it. There were at least 5 different instances of Knox's blood co-mingled with the victim's in the apartment. That's probably more physical evidence right off than most murder cases. Also, if you look at Italian juries, they include not only peers, but professional judges. Italy is getting slammed for this quite unfairly; they have a sophisticated and fair system of law and she would just as likely be found guilty if it happened in the US. Check out this video, especially after 1:20 and the blood on the floor if you can see it at 1:33:

    YouTube - Amanda Knox: Rare Police Video Of Murder In Italy

    Knox admits to using that bathroom the morning after the murder. Her response as to whether she was concerned by the large amount of blood and why she didn't notify anyone? She assumed her roommate was having "menstrual issues." Really? Come on.

    I agree with this author, who states that because American media outlets weren't sending people to Perugia for the trial, they have swallowed up second-hand stories and fallen sympathetic to the heart-wrenching story of an innocent student caught in a nightmare abroad, while ignoring the immense amount of evidence:

    YouTube - The Truth About ''Angel Face'' Amanda Knox

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    Like I said, I don't know much about the case but it certainly seems that the lack of physical evidence was not correct and likely spin based on your links..

    Do you know anything abut motive? How did they link her boyfriend of only a week, a drug dealer, and Knox into this sexual/murderous rampage?

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    jizay is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burholme06 View Post
    Do you know anything abut motive? How did they link her boyfriend of only a week, a drug dealer, and Knox into this sexual/murderous rampage?
    The boyfriend was linked because he and Knox were seen together that night. Both initially lied when questioned about their whereabouts, and both turned their cellphones off and left them off all night. Guede also emerged as a result of questioning various people who had seen them in Perugia. Searching the apartment yielded his footprint and some of his feces in a toilet.

    I have no idea what the motive would be. When you question anyone that might have known something about the murder, and you turn up a roommate that immediately lies about the evening in question, and then find all sorts of blood and DNA evidence placing her at the crime, do you feel that you need to figure out the motive? Italy has a modern system of justice. They didn't just railroad a random person for this crime.

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    Motive is important because it's the reason behind the murder. If someone kills without motive, they are likely insane. I'm not saying she's innocent but the lack of motive sets off alarm bells for me.

    Knox lived in the same house in which the murder happened. Her DNA should be everywhere. it may be in places that are unexpected that would incriminate her but I think you still need to find some motive to close the deal. Someone must have some idea why an honor student would join with a drug dealer in a murder.

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    toxigal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jizay View Post
    They found the murder weapon with her, her boyfriend's, and the victim's DNA on it, as well as bleach that was used in an apparent attempt to clean it. There were at least 5 different instances of Knox's blood co-mingled with the victim's in the apartment.
    Actually, both sides agree that they did not find the exact murder weapon. They found a knife "similar" to the type used to kill the victim which had Knox's DNA and DNA that was "similar" to that of Kerscher. There was not enough DNA to make a definitive match to Kerscher. Yes, the knife had been cleaned, but there is no physical evidence that bleach was used. The investigators noted that the apartment smelled of bleach, but that is different than having physical evidence that bleach was used to clean the knife.

    I don't think they found co-mingled blood, but rather Kercher's blood co-mingled with Knox's DNA. If two people live together, both of their DNA is going to be all over the place, so i don't find this surprising at all.

    i cant' watch youtube at work, so i'm not sure what the videos say. i'd agree there was a lot of physical evidence, but what that physical evidence proves (or doesn't prove) is highly debateable.

    e

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    jizay is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxigal View Post
    Actually, both sides agree that they did not find the exact murder weapon. They found a knife "similar" to the type used to kill the victim which had Knox's DNA and DNA that was "similar" to that of Kerscher.
    Sorry, to be correct, they presented a knife as a murder weapon and consistent with Kercher's wounds, but they don't have the critical link to lock it down. The DNA could be Kercher's and does not rule her out, but they don't have enough of a quality sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by toxigal View Post
    I don't think they found co-mingled blood, but rather Kercher's blood co-mingled with Knox's DNA. If two people live together, both of their DNA is going to be all over the place, so i don't find this surprising at all.
    Various news outlets reported that they found both, DNA co-mingled with Kercher's blood and blood co-mingled. I understand that media can get technical matters wrong, but it is the determination of the professionals in the courtroom as to the strength of the evidence, and these instances were treated as quite important.

    Quote Originally Posted by toxigal View Post
    i'd agree there was a lot of physical evidence, but what that physical evidence proves (or doesn't prove) is highly debateable.
    So, possibly we agree. PR firms hired by the Knoxes have put out the meme that there was no phsyical evidence, not that the defense found themselves in the unusual position of disagreeing that the evidence proved their client guilty. And while we speculate about the evidence based on the details that reach us, teams of highly trained forensic specialists, attorneys, and judges saw the evidence in detail and determined that it was sufficient to convict Knox. Trials are not infallible, but that is a big difference from the horror story many tell of a poor exchange student who was railroaded into a conviction improperly and without evidence. There is more than enough reason to believe Knox was involved in this murder.

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    jizay is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burholme06 View Post
    Motive is important because it's the reason behind the murder. If someone kills without motive, they are likely insane. I'm not saying she's innocent but the lack of motive sets off alarm bells for me.

    Knox lived in the same house in which the murder happened. Her DNA should be everywhere. it may be in places that are unexpected that would incriminate her but I think you still need to find some motive to close the deal. Someone must have some idea why an honor student would join with a drug dealer in a murder.
    Fair enough. The prosecution claims that two hated each other, but I don't find that special. I think without a doubt Knox was at the scene and participated in covering it up, which doesn't mean she did it, but she should certainly start talking.

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    jizay, when I get more time I'm going to research both sides a bit more because it's a fascinating case. I don't have an opinion at the moment. I did notice that you fell back on the "they know what they're doing and we just need to trust them" defense for the police and prosecution team. That also sets off alarm bell for me.

    Also, I don’t think questioning the fairness of a trial in Italy is slamming Italy as a country. In the same way that questioning court decisions here isn't being anti-US.

  10. #10
    toxigal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jizay View Post


    Various news outlets reported that they found both, DNA co-mingled with Kercher's blood and blood co-mingled. I understand that media can get technical matters wrong, but it is the determination of the professionals in the courtroom as to the strength of the evidence, and these instances were treated as quite important.



    So, possibly we agree. PR firms hired by the Knoxes have put out the meme that there was no phsyical evidence, not that the defense found themselves in the unusual position of disagreeing that the evidence proved their client guilty. And while we speculate about the evidence based on the details that reach us, teams of highly trained forensic specialists, attorneys, and judges saw the evidence in detail and determined that it was sufficient to convict Knox. Trials are not infallible, but that is a big difference from the horror story many tell of a poor exchange student who was railroaded into a conviction improperly and without evidence. There is more than enough reason to believe Knox was involved in this murder.
    a few things...it is not at all unusual for defense attorneys to be in the position of disagreeing that the evidence proved their client guilty. it's what the defense does in most cases.

    i'm not sure how the italian system works, do the experts, attorney's and judges determine guilt or is it a jury? in a jury trial (in the US) the evidence is presented and it is up to the jury to decide the strength of the evidence, it isn't up to the court professionals to do so. does italy use professional jurors?

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxigal View Post
    does italy use professional jurors?
    This is quote from jizay's post above: "Also, if you look at Italian juries, they include not only peers, but professional judges."

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    jizay is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by toxigal View Post
    i'm not sure how the italian system works, do the experts, attorney's and judges determine guilt or is it a jury? in a jury trial (in the US) the evidence is presented and it is up to the jury to decide the strength of the evidence, it isn't up to the court professionals to do so. does italy use professional jurors?
    As Burholme notes, there are judges on the panel. Additionally, if the evidence is so bad, the experts don't have to bring it to trial, can dismiss the trial, can possibly overturn a verdict, etc. A lot of very smart people saw enough to bring this to trial, even though it could cause tension with the US and even though the Italian boyfriend's family is quite well-connected.

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    Meanwhile, Knox is making the best use she can of her time. Her father, Curt Knox, said that his daughter practices yoga, is becoming fluent in Italian, plays guitar at prison church services and continues her college education through correspondence courses.
    Isn't this the issue in the other thread on here about taxpayer money keep people alive and comfortable?

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    Isn't this the issue in the other thread on here about taxpayer money keep people alive and comfortable?
    I guess she can be happy that she studied abroad in Italy and not Thailand.

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    I found one of the most bizarre aspects of this case to be the prosecutor's history of accusing people of being demonically possessed and inventing really elaborate satanic cult theories. He was also convinced of abuse of his office over this, but I think that didn't happen until after the Knox case was over so he was allowed to continue working on it while he was under investigation. The guy seems completely unhinged.


    The Monster of Florence was a serial killer who murdered eight lover's lane couples in the Tuscan hills surrounding Florence, Italy in the 1970's and 1980's. Debate continues to this day about the real identity of the Monster.

    In October 1985, Dr. Francesco Narducci was found dead near a lake outside of Perugia, Italy. The doctor died of an overdose of Demerol, it appeared to be a suicide. The death was seemingly unrelated to the Monster cases.

    Nonetheless, in 2001, Perugia prosecutor Giulano Mignini decided that Narducci's death was part of the Monster of Florence case. Mignini claimed Narducci was a member of a satanic sect that killed women for body parts to be used in black masses, and the wealthy Perugia doctor was the keeper of those body parts. Mignini claimed Narducci was killed to keep him quiet.

    Even though all the Monster's victims were shot with the same gun, Mignini told a court that it wasn't the work of a single serial killer. Rather, Mignini described an elaborate conspiracy of 20 people, including government officials and law enforcement officers, who made up a secret society behind the Monster killings.

    Mignini indicted the 20 people and charged them with the concealment of Narducci's murder, and laid out a hard-to-follow plot that included body doubles and featured Narducci's body being swapped - not once, but twice!
    Monster of Florence: Amanda Knox Prosecutor's Satanic Theories Rejected by Judge - Crimesider - CBS News

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    toxigal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixiboi View Post
    Isn't this the issue in the other thread on here about taxpayer money keep people alive and comfortable?
    unless we are going to 1) execute everyone or 2) lock everyone up forever then what other options are there if there is any hope of people who have spent time in prison becoming productive members of society?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizay View Post
    As Burholme notes, there are judges on the panel. Additionally, if the evidence is so bad, the experts don't have to bring it to trial, can dismiss the trial, can possibly overturn a verdict, etc. A lot of very smart people saw enough to bring this to trial, even though it could cause tension with the US and even though the Italian boyfriend's family is quite well-connected.
    this looks good for Knox , thank god finally:

    Italian court OKs DNA evidence review for Knox - USATODAY.com


    PERUGIA, Italy (AP) ó Amanda Knox won an important victory in her appeals trial of her murder conviction in Italy on Saturday, when a court ruled that it will allow an independent review of crucial DNA evidence after defense claims that samples were inconclusive and possibly contaminated.

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    OldMama is offline Senior Member
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    I read The Monster of Florence. It's pretty damning regarding the Italian legal system, the DA's, the investigators etc. In the Monster case, multiple arrests were made and even the guy writing the book about the case was a suspect! All charges against all suspects were dropped. In the postscript, the writer draws analogies between the monster case and the Knox case and says that, based on his own experience with the legal eagles involved with both the Monster case and Amanda Knox's case, he puts no faith in whatever evidence they present. I think this girl is at the mercy of incompetent prosecutors and we may never know the truth just as in the Monster of Florence case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMama View Post
    I read The Monster of Florence. It's pretty damning regarding the Italian legal system, the DA's, the investigators etc. In the Monster case, multiple arrests were made and even the guy writing the book about the case was a suspect! All charges against all suspects were dropped. In the postscript, the writer draws analogies between the monster case and the Knox case and says that, based on his own experience with the legal eagles involved with both the Monster case and Amanda Knox's case, he puts no faith in whatever evidence they present. I think this girl is at the mercy of incompetent prosecutors and we may never know the truth just as in the Monster of Florence case.
    I read The Monster of Florence too. If anyone involved in that case is now involved in the Amanda Knox case, I would be hesitant to accept evidence from them.

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    Burholme06 is offline Senior Member
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