Hard Rock Cafe @ 12th and Market: best use for that site?

[Pitt]

Anyone know how long Hard Rock has been there and who was the previous tenant? I walk by there at least 10 times a week and see a lot of parents with kids milling about the doorway, and I know it's a good place to take 20 kids you're toting around the Convention Center during a cheerleading or Irish Dance competition, but it's a shame seeing such a beautiful, historic building turned into a Hard Rock Cafe.

I understand the necessity of Hard Rock Cafe-type establishments, but I wouldn't mind seeing a History of Philadelphia Museum in that spot.

[cwd22]

Maybe in the future there will be the demand for something else to take over that location, but right now a high-profile national chain is exactly what Market East needs.

[eldondre]

Maybe in the future there will be the demand for something else to take over that location, but right now a high-profile national chain is exactly what Market East needs.

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. In fact, corporate crap may be the single biggest deterrent to further improvements in market east. you have marriott run 13 across the street, the God awful but now closed Champs, and the subpar Hard Rock that, on a recent and first time visit, was both corny and reaking of vomit. Kick out Hard Rock forthwith and with gusto. bring in garces or starr, I think a supersized Stella type place would do quite qell as woudl a chickie and pete's type place. the Field house seems to pack em in on filbert street, someone could do a lot more than Hard Rock on Market. the people are there, coming in by train, walking around during the day...kick em out, they can find other space. when Goldman was trying to turn around 13th st he brought in starr, not houlihan's.

[sometimesilie]

I went in there a few years ago with some out-of-towners who insisted on going and I thought the menu was out of control, price wise. Never been back and actually lied to subsequent visitors who wanted to eat there, saying it was shut down for remodeling.

I do remember loving it when I was a little kid though. Whenever we went into the Big City (Warshington, DC it was for me) I always insisted we eat at the HRC....

[Malloy]

I'd like to see Chickies there.

[cwd22]

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. In fact, corporate crap may be the single biggest deterrent to further improvements in market east. you have marriott run 13 across the street, the God awful but now closed Champs, and the subpar Hard Rock that, on a recent and first time visit, was both corny and reaking of vomit. Kick out Hard Rock forthwith and with gusto. bring in garces or starr, I think a supersized Stella type place would do quite qell as woudl a chickie and pete's type place. the Field house seems to pack em in on filbert street, someone could do a lot more than Hard Rock on Market. the people are there, coming in by train, walking around during the day...kick em out, they can find other space. when Goldman was trying to turn around 13th st he brought in starr, not houlihan's.

Market St and 13th St are two different beasts though. For 13th it was important to draw residents from Washington Square West and the other side of Broad St. Those people weren't going to be drawn in by chain restaurants. Market East, on the other hand, does not have a lot of nearby residential development, but it does have a lot of tourists around. Tourists like chains, especially big somewhat exclusive ones like Hard Rock. I do think that a Starr or Garces place would work, as would a Chickie and Pete's, but there's plenty of space to go around.

[eldondre]

Market St and 13th St are two different beasts though. For 13th it was important to draw residents from Washington Square West and the other side of Broad St. Those people weren't going to be drawn in by chain restaurants. Market East, on the other hand, does not have a lot of nearby residential development, but it does have a lot of tourists around. Tourists like chains, especially big somewhat exclusive ones like Hard Rock. I do think that a Starr or Garces place would work, as would a Chickie and Pete's, but there's plenty of space to go around.

If there's plenty of space then Hard Rock can find some. I'm not anti-chain per se, but I think it's actually harming the development. I think you're incorrect that it's any different from 13th. When our family and friends take the train in fromthe suburbs, often to eat in wash West/13th st, they pass through Market East. In fact, we were looking for a place to grab a beer close to the station and that's how we ended up in the Hard Rock Cafe which was completely empty. first we went to the field house which was completely mobbed. I too have never particularly liked it but obviously someone does. then we walked by the mostly empty 13 and ended up at the totally epty, vomit smelling crap factory called the hard rock. "I'll have a yard's." Response, we don't have one. "I'll have a lager." we don't have one." that space deserve better than the POS. If I were king I'd put a stella in there (who doesn't like pizza? pizza ovens are at their best when they're constantly full) and a chickie's across the street. hard rock can move somewhere else. nobody's going to mind. I also disagree that all tourists like chains and if they do, there is a chili's, maggiano's, and melting pot. there's no reason the area has to be targeted solely at tourists. in fact, that's the current folly. people live and work and pass through there all the time. the only reason I don't go to market east at night is there's no reason to go there at night. that's it.

[cwd22]

If there's plenty of space then Hard Rock can find some. I'm not anti-chain per se, but I think it's actually harming the development. I think you're incorrect that it's any different from 13th. When our family and friends take the train in fromthe suburbs, often to eat in wash West/13th st, they pass through Market East. In fact, we were looking for a place to grab a beer close to the station and that's how we ended up in the Hard Rock Cafe which was completely empty. first we went to the field house which was completely mobbed. I too have never particularly liked it but obviously someone does. then we walked by the mostly empty 13 and ended up at the totally epty, vomit smelling crap factory called the hard rock. "I'll have a yard's." Response, we don't have one. "I'll have a lager." we don't have one." that space deserve better than the POS. If I were king I'd put a stella in there (who doesn't like pizza? pizza ovens are at their best when they're constantly full) and a chickie's across the street. hard rock can move somewhere else. nobody's going to mind. I also disagree that all tourists like chains and if they do, there is a chili's, maggiano's, and melting pot. there's no reason the area has to be targeted solely at tourists. in fact, that's the current folly. people live and work and pass through there all the time. the only reason I don't go to market east at night is there's no reason to go there at night. that's it.

I personally would rather have something other than Hard Rock, but whenever I walk by there seem to be plenty of people going in and out. I think it's fine where it is right now, but hopefully in a couple of years a much better use will come up for that spot.

[Pitt]

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. In fact, corporate crap may be the single biggest deterrent to further improvements in market east. you have marriott run 13 across the street, the God awful but now closed Champs, and the subpar Hard Rock that, on a recent and first time visit, was both corny and reaking of vomit. Kick out Hard Rock forthwith and with gusto. bring in garces or starr, I think a supersized Stella type place would do quite qell as woudl a chickie and pete's type place. the Field house seems to pack em in on filbert street, someone could do a lot more than Hard Rock on Market. the people are there, coming in by train, walking around during the day...kick em out, they can find other space. when Goldman was trying to turn around 13th st he brought in starr, not houlihan's.

I met some out-of-town friends at Hard Rock a few years ago and the chicken mac and cheese I had was excellent.

I'm not anti-corporate. I just think that building would serve the people of Philadelphia better as something else.

[Hospitalitygirl]

I personally would rather have something other than Hard Rock, but whenever I walk by there seem to be plenty of people going in and out. I think it's fine where it is right now, but hopefully in a couple of years a much better use will come up for that spot.

This.

Recognizable chains exist near the main nexus of Convention Center/hotels/trains, etc because people actually want these things. They serve a purpose. It's not the end of the world.

[D-man]

Anyone know how long Hard Rock has been there and who was the previous tenant?

It's been there no more than 12-13 years. The previous tenant was, well, nobody. Before the HRC moved in, the Reading Terminal Headhouse was basically an abandoned hulk, with the exception of the market. When the building was renovated and integrated into the convention center, that front corner was leased to the HRC. At the time, it was seen as a "win" because Philly was one of the few cities that didn't have its own Hard Rock. Now, I suppose we could do better with that location. Not a big fan of Chickie's - the food is not much better than the chains - but I guess it would be a step up. I like the idea of converting it to museum space.

I remembered the days when Reading Terminal was a depressing eyesore, so I guess the HRC doesn't bother me too much.

[Voodoo]

Maybe in the future there will be the demand for something else to take over that location, but right now a high-profile national chain is exactly what Market East needs.

I agree. Tourists love it and it couldn't be easier for them to find.

[mixiboi]

I remembered the days when Reading Terminal was a depressing eyesore, so I guess the HRC doesn't bother me too much.

^^This..

If DisneyQuest actually got built, we'd probably be saying the same thing about that..but then Market East would be totally different now..lol

[eldondre]

I personally would rather have something other than Hard Rock, but whenever I walk by there seem to be plenty of people going in and out. I think it's fine where it is right now, but hopefully in a couple of years a much better use will come up for that spot.

This is exactly why nothing changes. This is one of the few spots that the city actually controls in any meaningful way. Perhaps when the terminal reopened it was a big deal, and if HRC is really what the market wants, they'll find another space. The fact that people are in there is a big deal? the corner has more foot traffic than any in the city. try walking by at 10 pm on a friday night...full? not when I've walked by. HRC should be removed, whoever comes next should have to open into the convention center. the terminal's sign should replace the hard rock's sign. If market east is ever to turn around it's not going to come from timid leadership afraid to kick out a mediocre chain whose best decades were years ago. does anyone not go somewhere because there's no HRC? no. If there's a real demand they can find another space. The city is a very different place and so is the RTM. In all my years being a tourist I've been to exactly one HRC. tourists live a vibrant city that has lots of things that their city does not have. Foreign tourism isn't up because we have an HRC. you want to revive market east? put something interesting there that doesn't shut own at 10 pm. maybe even something that uses ingredients from the terminal and makes Philadelphia proud. It's a cop out to say it's just for tourists. MArket East was once a great shopping and destination street for Philadelphia residents as well as tourists. Philadelphians aren't filling up this crapshack

[Sycamore]

I'm gonna have to disagree completely. In fact, corporate crap may be the single biggest deterrent to further improvements in market east. you have marriott run 13 across the street, the God awful but now closed Champs, and the subpar Hard Rock that, on a recent and first time visit, was both corny and reaking of vomit. Kick out Hard Rock forthwith and with gusto. bring in garces or starr, I think a supersized Stella type place would do quite qell as woudl a chickie and pete's type place. the Field house seems to pack em in on filbert street, someone could do a lot more than Hard Rock on Market. the people are there, coming in by train, walking around during the day...kick em out, they can find other space. when Goldman was trying to turn around 13th st he brought in starr, not houlihan's.

I agree with this.

This "tourist" hates chains.

[cwd22]

This is exactly why nothing changes. This is one of the few spots that the city actually controls in any meaningful way. Perhaps when the terminal reopened it was a big deal, and if HRC is really what the market wants, they'll find another space. The fact that people are in there is a big deal? the corner has more foot traffic than any in the city. try walking by at 10 pm on a friday night...full? not when I've walked by. HRC should be removed, whoever comes next should have to open into the convention center. the terminal's sign should replace the hard rock's sign. If market east is ever to turn around it's not going to come from timid leadership afraid to kick out a mediocre chain whose best decades were years ago. does anyone not go somewhere because there's no HRC? no. If there's a real demand they can find another space. The city is a very different place and so is the RTM. In all my years being a tourist I've been to exactly one HRC. tourists live a vibrant city that has lots of things that their city does not have. Foreign tourism isn't up because we have an HRC. you want to revive market east? put something interesting there that doesn't shut own at 10 pm. maybe even something that uses ingredients from the terminal and makes Philadelphia proud. It's a cop out to say it's just for tourists. MArket East was once a great shopping and destination street for Philadelphia residents as well as tourists. Philadelphians aren't filling up this crapshack

And implying that a Hard Rock Cafe is holding Market East back is a cop out as well. There are a million different factors that control Market East's fate, and the NE corner of 13th and Market is a relatively minor issue compared to the Disney Hole, the vacant Strawbridges, and the Gallery's Facade. Fix any one of those things and the street will improve immensely, if the market dictates that the HRC doesn't belong in the Terminal Headhouse, it'll be forced out. But why kick out a presumably profitable business when there are already plenty of vacant storefronts.

[caL]

I agree with this.

This "tourist" hates chains.

Not if they have three little kids. HRC serves a good purpose and seems to do well there. The city has far more in terms of properties that should go. Let the Hard Rock be.

[Omni]

I've never understood the HRC phenomenon...but if they're on time with the rent and tourists are into it...it's not the worst place they could be.

[Hospitalitygirl]

This is exactly why nothing changes. This is one of the few spots that the city actually controls in any meaningful way. Perhaps when the terminal reopened it was a big deal, and if HRC is really what the market wants, they'll find another space. The fact that people are in there is a big deal? the corner has more foot traffic than any in the city. try walking by at 10 pm on a friday night...full? not when I've walked by. HRC should be removed, whoever comes next should have to open into the convention center. the terminal's sign should replace the hard rock's sign. If market east is ever to turn around it's not going to come from timid leadership afraid to kick out a mediocre chain whose best decades were years ago. does anyone not go somewhere because there's no HRC? no. If there's a real demand they can find another space. The city is a very different place and so is the RTM. In all my years being a tourist I've been to exactly one HRC. tourists live a vibrant city that has lots of things that their city does not have. Foreign tourism isn't up because we have an HRC. you want to revive market east? put something interesting there that doesn't shut own at 10 pm. maybe even something that uses ingredients from the terminal and makes Philadelphia proud. It's a cop out to say it's just for tourists. MArket East was once a great shopping and destination street for Philadelphia residents as well as tourists. Philadelphians aren't filling up this crapshack

Oh come on! It is not the Hard Rock that keeps Market East back. Not at all. There are myriad factors, but HRC is not one of them.

[eldondre]

And implying that a Hard Rock Cafe is holding Market East back is a cop out as well. There are a million different factors that control Market East's fate, and the NE corner of 13th and Market is a relatively minor issue compared to the Disney Hole, the vacant Strawbridges, and the Gallery's Facade. Fix any one of those things and the street will improve immensely, if the market dictates that the HRC doesn't belong in the Terminal Headhouse, it'll be forced out. But why kick out a presumably profitable business when there are already plenty of vacant storefronts.

no, it's a bold idea that costs nothing. doing nothing is a cop out. If HRC is as popular as everyone makes it out to be, they will find another space (there's only one other sizable vacant storefront, not many). I also don't buy the family of three angle, there's a chili's a block away that serves the same food. the vacant strawbridge's is at 8th and market. Hard Rock is on the corner of the busiest corner in Philadelphia in a landmark building. a monkey could make money there. the single biggest problem on market east is ownership. PPA at 8th, complicated RDA/PREIT/City ownership of the Gallery, city controlled Girard trust, Marriott crapfest. It's hard to believe that only tourists roam in the aisles of RTM, use Market East station, or catch the el/buses on market st but that's the implication here.

Oh come on! It is not the Hard Rock that keeps Market East back. Not at all. There are myriad factors, but HRC is not one of them.

meh. lack of vision and settling for mediocrity is. that's what HRC represents. it's the one area the city actually does control. I'll take goldman's lead over the "tourists love it" angle.