Hard Rock Cafe @ 12th and Market: best use for that site?

[caL]

no, it's a bold idea that costs nothing. doing nothing is a cop out. If HRC is as popular as everyone makes it out to be, they will find another space (there's only one other sizable vacant storefront, not many). I also don't buy the family of three angle, there's a chili's a block away that serves the same food. the vacant strawbridge's is at 8th and market. Hard Rock is on the corner of the busiest corner in Philadelphia in a landmark building. a monkey could make money there. the single biggest problem on market east is ownership. PPA at 8th, complicated RDA/PREIT/City ownership of the Gallery, city controlled Girard trust, Marriott crapfest. It's hard to believe that only tourists roam in the aisles of RTM, use Market East station, or catch the el/buses on market st but that's the implication here.

Why should they have to find another space if they do well there?

Chili's argument is just as bad. Both seem to do well; having Chili's is no reason not to have the HRC. And they are not the same atmosphere.

Is strawbridges still vacant? I thought GSA leased it out.

But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a good reason why HRC should not be there other than eldondre and some others on here won't eat there.

[Hospitalitygirl]

no, it's a bold idea that costs nothing. doing nothing is a cop out. If HRC is as popular as everyone makes it out to be, they will find another space (there's only one other sizable vacant storefront, not many). I also don't buy the family of three angle, there's a chili's a block away that serves the same food. the vacant strawbridge's is at 8th and market. Hard Rock is on the corner of the busiest corner in Philadelphia in a landmark building. a monkey could make money there. the single biggest problem on market east is ownership. PPA at 8th, complicated RDA/PREIT/City ownership of the Gallery, city controlled Girard trust, Marriott crapfest. It's hard to believe that only tourists roam in the aisles of RTM, use Market East station, or catch the el/buses on market st but that's the implication here.


meh. lack of vision and settling for mediocrity is. that's what HRC represents. it's the one area the city actually does control. I'll take goldman's lead over the "tourists love it" angle.

Well here's an idea for you--YOU open something fabu there.

[eldondre]

Why should they have to find another space if they do well there?

Chili's argument is just as bad. Both seem to do well; having Chili's is no reason not to have the HRC. And they are not the same atmosphere.

Is strawbridges still vacant? I thought GSA leased it out.

But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a good reason why HRC should not be there other than eldondre and some others on here won't eat there.

why should they continue to be in a primo spot just because they do okay there? chili's isn't the reason they should boot HRC, it's just the reason that families don't need HRC for a chain meal. the reason they should boot HRC is they control the site and they could bring in somebody to give the corner a much needed shot in the arm. Obviously the HRC is just muddling along and hasn't driven any new investment...look at El Vez, Continental, Continental Midtown...they have coattails. I've given enough good reason. It seems the only reason we should keep HRC there is because a lot of people are scared of the dark and willing to accept mediocrity in market east. It's the cheapest way to bring about some change to market east and something that's actually controlled by city in a proven method.
btw-it's obvious most people aren't eating there, not just a few posters.

Maybe HRC can find space at the Bourse or Strawbridge's

[caL]

why should they continue to be in a primo spot just because they do okay there? chili's isn't the reason they should boot HRC, it's just the reason that families don't need HRC for a chain meal. the reason they should boot HRC is they control the site and they could bring in somebody to give the corner a much needed shot in the arm. Obviously the HRC is just muddling along and hasn't driven any new investment...look at El Vez, Continental, Continental Midtown...they have coattails. I've given enough good reason. It seems the only reason we should keep HRC there is because a lot of people are scared of the dark and willing to accept mediocrity in market east. It's the cheapest way to bring about some change to market east and something that's actually controlled by city in a proven method.
btw-it's obvious most people aren't eating there, not just a few posters.

Maybe HRC can find space at the Bourse or Strawbridge's

That's ridiculous. Market East does not meet its potential, but HRC is not to blame.

[BenDee]

Kicking out HRC is an atrocious idea simply because every other chain would feel that Philly throws you under the bus the second the city thinks a better/more politically connected store should go in your space.

Offer HRC an incentive to leave and see if they bite? Sure. Throw them out? Absolutely not.

[Scoats]

I went in there a few years ago with some out-of-towners who insisted on going

I read a few years ago that HRC's average patron travels 150 miles to eat there.

I was in Iceland after a not long enough red-eye flight for sufficient sleep. We met another couple while waiting for bags and they mentioned going to the Reykjavik HRC. I was very drowsy so my self-edit was disengaged and I responded "why would you want to do that?"

We ran into them later at the famous hot dog stand and I noticed they were wearing HRC clothes, so they successfully made it there.

When HRC finally opened here, it was a big deal. Several people pointed to it as one of Rendell's accomplishments. "He brought Hard Rock to Philly". I honestly don't get it.

All of that said, HRC ain't going anywhere, so it might as well be there. People aren't going to change their habits; they like traveling the planet and going to a HRC while there (and buying a T-shirt that looks identical to all of their other HRC shirts except with a different city listed). Does it makes sense to us city dwellers? No, it's nuts. But it is what it is and it ain't going to change. It's not like the HRC people would go to Monks or Armada. They'd just go to Olive Garden or Magiannos.

[eldondre]

That's ridiculous. Market East does not meet its potential, but HRC is not to blame.

you're totally missing the point. HRC isn't to blame, but the space offers an opportunity.
BenDee...you couldn't be more wrong. tenants are "thrown under the bus" all the time when a landlord wants to affect change. who said anything about political connections? no wonder why nothing changes, people think getting rid of a mediocre tenant is going to ruin market east. chains are not going to start avoiding market east because HRC lost its lease. that's completely ridiculous. If the current adminsitration has any balls they'll be booted and the space made to be open with the terminal inside. a new, more attractive restaurant opened and market sales expanded to front street. naysayers will always exist. probably defended the horse and buggy. If HRC is popular, they can find a non-headhouse location in which to set up shop.

[besafe]

The corner near 11th and Market is home to the Philadelphia Family Court. Unfortunately people who have to appear in this court are often less than desirable. They seem to congregate in that area before and after court appearances/fights. Imagine Jerry Springer guests hanging out 24/7. Perhaps moving this court could help the area start to realize it's potential.

[caL]

you're totally missing the point. HRC isn't to blame, but the space offers an opportunity.
BenDee...you couldn't be more wrong. tenants are "thrown under the bus" all the time when a landlord wants to affect change. who said anything about political connections? no wonder why nothing changes, people think getting rid of a mediocre tenant is going to ruin market east. chains are not going to start avoiding market east because HRC lost its lease. that's completely ridiculous. If the current adminsitration has any balls they'll be booted and the space made to be open with the terminal inside. a new, more attractive restaurant opened and market sales expanded to front street. naysayers will always exist. probably defended the horse and buggy. If HRC is popular, they can find a non-headhouse location in which to set up shop.

It's not mediocre to many tourists. It's good for the family unfamiliar with the city who wants to go somewhere fun and unique (not Chili's) but offers the basic chicken fingers and ketchup that 6 yr olds might actually eat.

I like extending the RTM to Market. If that means HRC has to move, hopefully the city can work with HRC to find another CC location. But for anything else, like a "nicer" restaurant, there's no need to force out the Hard Rock.

[eldondre]

The corner near 11th and Market is home to the Philadelphia Family Court. Unfortunately people who have to appear in this court are often less than desirable. They seem to congregate in that area before and after court appearances/fights. Imagine Jerry Springer guests hanging out 24/7. Perhaps moving this court could help the area start to realize it's potential.

I'm certainly in support of that but it hasn't happened because of something that's unlikely to change soon....$$$...or lack of it. the city doesn't have the money for a new facility and if they did, they'd be better spending it on the police HQ.

Scoats-actually, kicking out the Hard Rock is under consideration but the idea there is to bring the RTM back to market st. People in this thread seem obsessed with the idea that Market East need be solely targeted towards tourists and that's really at the heart of our disagreement. historically Market East has been the commercial center of Philadelphia and if it's ever to be successful again, it will have to draw people form our own region in, not just tourists which they split with old city, rittenhouse, the parkway, and wash west. While ideally Market East would turn around because the city has a growing office sector, I am merely proposing to use what is one of the few growing sectors in Philadelphia...nightlife to give Market East a bit more life. I'd also replace the Penn Convention Ctr sign with an eye catching Market East STation at Reading Terminal. It's unclear it's the main entrance to ME Station and with the front door of the convention center moving to North Broad, now seems like the perfect time. maybe HRC can lease the space next to Mickey D's.

[City Man]

I don't think HRC hurts things around there; RTM probably gets spillover. I once was in the Copa Too at 15th & Spruce enjoying a burger and Spanish Fries while I watched tourists from the Kimmel Center wait in line outside of Buca De Peppo. After while some got tired of standing there and ventured over. For a better meal.

[phillysw]

But if something else opens there, where will I get my crewneck Hard Rock Cafe sweatshirt to make me look cool and well-traveled in approximately 1994?

[eldondre]

I don't think HRC hurts things around there; RTM probably gets spillover. I once was in the Copa Too at 15th & Spruce enjoying a burger and Spanish Fries while I watched tourists from the Kimmel Center wait in line outside of Buca De Peppo. After while some got tired of standing there and ventured over. For a better meal.

I'm not sure RTM gets spillover at all. I walked by at lunch today, there were some people at the hard Rock, not full by any means, the terminal was full. I'd wager that the RTM is a far bigger tourist attraction (and still functional market) than the HRC. Not that spillover doesn't happen, Lolita first garnered attention through spillover from El Vez. In fact, I think the HRC is benefitting from spillover from the market, hotels, convention center, and the tourist area rather than drawing people into the area. Every time I've been near there the area is packed (except at night) but very little of it is directly related to the HRC itself. People are walking up and down market, going to the terminal, el, Market East, work, etc. If you wanted to use it as an anchor today (as was the intent then), 8th and market is better location. If anything, it's an unanchor since it's totally disconnected from the rest of the building inside. It's not that HRC hurts the area in an active way but the city is currently looking at ways to improve Market East. given that this is a publicly controlled property. I believe their lease is coming up soon, perhaps now it's time to step things up a notch. yes, it would be preferrable if the HRC were lured or convinced to move to another site...without public money of course, they are a lessee not an owner so they should not have any more rights than any other lessee.

[eldondre]

I like extending the RTM to Market. If that means HRC has to move, hopefully the city can work with HRC to find another CC location. But for anything else, like a "nicer" restaurant, there's no need to force out the Hard Rock.

meh, this is totally false. HRC is dead at night. a place like chickie's or a starr/garces joint coudl clean up there and bring life to market east at night as well as day which woudl be an improvement. there's nothign unique about the hard rock, it's bennigan's with a corny schtick. I fail to see why they shoudl get a sweetheart deal from some conglomeration. find them another space, clear out their current space, open it to the terminal building on the inside, and bring in a real restaurateur or a plce like chickie and pete's that will draw tourists in from the suburbs (probably via market east station) which is far more lucrative than conventioneers.

Offer HRC an incentive to leave and see if they bite? Sure. Throw them out? Absolutely not.

well, yes, kick them out in the sense you don't renew their lease. I've come up with two locations that might work. the former strawbridge's food court and, perhaps more importantly, the convention center's new front door on Broad Street. Namely, the ground floor of the old water revenue bureau's building at Broad and Arch which, I believe, is currently owned by the state. Great way to get a new tenant there, bring some life to a desolate stretch that is now supposed to be the heart of convention country. I'd bet that conventioneers are more likely to hit up hard rock than a lot of other tourists.
I tend to wonder how many people wander market st thinking all philly has is a hard rock cafe, no other dining options..


other notes: it appears something is moving into 15 S. 12th. we'll see if it's anything interesting.

I stand corrected, the family court building is moving forward
Changing Skyline: Courting mediocrity with bland designing | Philadelphia Inquirer | 02/12/2010

[desolate]

meh, this is totally false. HRC is dead at night. a place like chickie's or a starr/garces joint coudl clean up there and bring life to market east at night as well as day which woudl be an improvement. there's nothign unique about the hard rock, it's bennigan's with a corny schtick. I fail to see why they shoudl get a sweetheart deal from some conglomeration. find them another space, clear out their current space, open it to the terminal building on the inside, and bring in a real restaurateur or a plce like chickie and pete's that will draw tourists in from the suburbs (probably via market east station) which is far more lucrative than conventioneers.

well, yes, kick them out in the sense you don't renew their lease. I've come up with two locations that might work. the former strawbridge's food court and, perhaps more importantly, the convention center's new front door on Broad Street. Namely, the ground floor of the old water revenue bureau's building at Broad and Arch which, I believe, is currently owned by the state. Great way to get a new tenant there, bring some life to a desolate stretch that is now supposed to be the heart of convention country. I'd bet that conventioneers are more likely to hit up hard rock than a lot of other tourists.
I tend to wonder how many people wander market st thinking all philly has is a hard rock cafe, no other dining options..


other notes: it appears something is moving into 15 S. 12th. we'll see if it's anything interesting.

I stand corrected, the family court building is moving forward
Changing Skyline: Courting mediocrity with bland designing | Philadelphia Inquirer | 02/12/2010

No residents in the area (with money) to support post working hour drinking/dining


Not enough to have a critical mass to promote local tourism like Walnut and South.


Again, the issues with retaining an ethnic enclave of poor in your tourist area.

and never having anyo ther residential towers go up.


You drop two or three St James or Left Bank level towers like at 8th and Market.


West Market has a different issue. The barren 1980's-1990's turned what should be vibrant apartment towers into retirement homes.

[eldondre]

No residents in the area (with money) to support post working hour drinking/dining
Not enough to have a critical mass to promote local tourism like Walnut and South.
West Market has a different issue. The barren 1980's-1990's turned what should be vibrant apartment towers into retirement homes.

you often point that cc couldn't survive without people coming in from other areas which, in itself, debunks this theory. people are already coming in through market east to go places like 13th st (which itself is relatively unpopulated yet still successful, indeed, ngihtlife is driving residential development there as it's replaced god awful chicken houses, vacant storefronts, and check cashing places). more to the point, many times we ended up at Independence to be close to the train. in fact, we recently tried that and the Field House was wall to wall people so obviously nightlife is possible on market east. Indeed, for years I passed through market east on my way home and many pass through on their way out from employment centers like aramark and jefferson. sure, it's more limited than market west, but not non-existent.

[eldondre]

this is about to become an 11 story Jefferson building, they are currently gutting it

[MarketStEl]

I went in there a few years ago with some out-of-towners who insisted on going and I thought the menu was out of control, price wise. Never been back and actually lied to subsequent visitors who wanted to eat there, saying it was shut down for remodeling.

I do remember loving it when I was a little kid though. Whenever we went into the Big City (Warshington, DC it was for me) I always insisted we eat at the HRC....

Your last sentence is the reason why the city wanted to land an HRC in the first place. It's not just a chain, it's a Brand Name chain (like Polo Ralph Lauren, e.g.)

Scoats-actually, kicking out the Hard Rock is under consideration but the idea there is to bring the RTM back to market st. People in this thread seem obsessed with the idea that Market East need be solely targeted towards tourists and that's really at the heart of our disagreement. historically Market East has been the commercial center of Philadelphia and if it's ever to be successful again, it will have to draw people form our own region in, not just tourists which they split with old city, rittenhouse, the parkway, and wash west. While ideally Market East would turn around because the city has a growing office sector, I am merely proposing to use what is one of the few growing sectors in Philadelphia...nightlife to give Market East a bit more life. I'd also replace the Penn Convention Ctr sign with an eye catching Market East STation at Reading Terminal. It's unclear it's the main entrance to ME Station and with the front door of the convention center moving to North Broad, now seems like the perfect time. maybe HRC can lease the space next to Mickey D's.

Well, if the city is considering kicking out HRC, then by all means, let 'em go ahead and kick 'em out. I'm with eldondre here: we can probably find a better tenant for that space.

BTW, do you know that the RTM is the city's third most popular tourist attraction, after Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell? I know that Jack McDavid already keeps later hours for his Down Home Diner than the rest of the RTM; if the Market were able to expand into the headhouse (not back into the headhouse; it's never occupied any part of the Terminal beyond its current site so far) and perhaps locate some of the eateries there -- and keep that part of the Market open past 6 -- I suspect that the visitors would gladly flock there.

No residents in the area (with money) to support post working hour drinking/dining

You obviously haven't been to the Field House.

It's often as busy after 6 as the HRC is quiet.

As el pointed out, they can take the trains back home or walk to their hotels.

Goldman got 'em onto 13th Street, where no decent person once dared tread.

We can indeed do better than the HRC here -- and certainly we can find another space for them. How about the Champions space across the street?