Realistically.... Will bikeshare philly ever happen?

[John Goodman]

Just got back from some traveling and am now more of a believer in this than ever

Could completely change center city if done right

Do you think there is any chance this happens this decade?

Maybe ccd could pay for it?

[John Goodman]

No thoughts?

[thoth]

I used it the last time I was in DC. Growing up on the east coast, I've naturally been to the capital a number of times before, but the last time we went I had a better time than ever before. It was largely due to being able to grab a bike virtually wherever I wanted and drop it virtually whenever I wanted to. I used the SpotCycle app to quickly find pods so I was never stuck searching for a bikeshare location. I'm a believer.

I think if the program can be implemented in DC, there's no reason it couldn't work in Philadelphia's core. And given that our transit system is less comprehensive than DC's, I think it would be a boon for areas like Fairmount, Pennsport, SWCC, and lower South Street, i.e. the areas that are poorly served by rapid transit.

That said, I haven't heard a peep from the proof of concept people in over a year. So I'm not holding my breath.

[BarryG]

I used it as a tourist in Montreal and it was awesome. The problem is that in DC, Portland, (probably) Montreal, everywhere I know of, it is not profitable and is subsidized. In NYC the city is supporting it but not putting in any cash -- it has to make money on its own. We'll see if it works. I don't see an ongoing subsidy for it happening here, for both financial and political reasons, so I don't think it's going to happen until proven as a business model. And even then you'd have to convince City Council that more bikes in CC is a good thing, which many members seem not to believe. So yea -- realistically, not any time soon.

[OffenseTaken]

It's a matter of when, not if. Implementation will be a few years behind here compared to other cities: finding a corporate sponsor will be a hard sell in this city, and politically it will be a hot potato (more bikes in the street AND fewer parking spaces??!?!). But it will happen.

Personally, I'm really excited about the idea, because it shouldn't be just a nerdy leisure-class subculture that rides bikes. There should be a lot more casual riders out there who don't necessarily own all the gear and want to make it a lifestyle. It should be just another way of getting from A to B.

I used it as a tourist in Montreal and it was awesome. The problem is that in DC, Portland, (probably) Montreal, everywhere I know of, it is not profitable and is subsidized.

I don't think there's a single bike-sharing program that turns a profit. It would be more a question of whether we could find a private concern that is willing to shoulder the excessive cost.

[BarryG]

I don't think there's a single bike-sharing program that turns a profit. It would be more a question of whether we could find a private concern that is willing to shoulder the excessive cost.

Where is this done and why would a corporation spend millions of dollars propping up an unprofitable bike share? Everywhere I know if it, it is subsidized with tax dollars. Yeah maybe there are some ads here and there, but it seems like it would need to be publicly subsidized like every other form of transportation.

To argue against myself, car sharing is a profitable business without direct subsidies (and high taxes too). NYC will be the test of if there is a real business model in bike sharing. But just because it may work in NYC doesn't mean it will work everywhere.

[raider.adam]

I don't see this as a funding priority for City Hall.

Can't dump money into bike share when you are threatening cop layoffs, fighting firefighter arbitration rulings, school district always asking for more money, browning out libraries and raisign taxes for the nth time in a row (and possibly will again next year).

[darthsinatra]

Where is this done and why would a corporation spend millions of dollars propping up an unprofitable bike share? Everywhere I know if it, it is subsidized with tax dollars. Yeah maybe there are some ads here and there, but it seems like it would need to be publicly subsidized like every other form of transportation.

To argue against myself, car sharing is a profitable business without direct subsidies (and high taxes too). NYC will be the test of if there is a real business model in bike sharing. But just because it may work in NYC doesn't mean it will work everywhere.

I thought I read that NYCs bikeshare was being funded 100% by Citi and is being called CitiBike. Last week it was officially delayed till spring after an anticipated September launch.

[BarryG]

I thought I read that NYCs bikeshare was being funded 100% by Citi and is being called CitiBike. Last week it was officially delayed till spring after an anticipated September launch.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TION/120509913

Wow $41 million over five years.

[BarryG]

I thought I read that NYCs bikeshare was being funded 100% by Citi and is being called CitiBike. Last week it was officially delayed till spring after an anticipated September launch.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TION/120509913

Wow $41 million over five years.

[John Goodman]

I don't see this as a funding priority for City Hall.

Can't dump money into bike share when you are threatening cop layoffs, fighting firefighter arbitration rulings, school district always asking for more money, browning out libraries and raisign taxes for the nth time in a row (and possibly will again next year).

I figured... That's why I mentioned the center city district. Any chance a combo of ccd and corporate charities could get it done?

Xfinitybikes anyone?

[thoth]

"The system is financed by the JCDecaux advertising corporation, in return for the city of Paris signing over the income from a substantial portion of on-street advertising hoardings. JCDecaux won the contract over a rival bid from Clear Channel.[1]

JCDecaux paid the scheme's start-up costs, totalling about $140 million, and employs around 285 people full-time to operate the system and repair the bikes on a ten-year contract. The city receives all revenue from the programme, as well as a fee of about US$4.3 million a year. In return, JCDecaux receives exclusive control over 1,628 city-owned billboards; the city receives about half of that advertising space at no charge for public-interest advertising[10] (slightly different numbers were reported in July 2008).[1] This model was first used in France in 1998 by Adshel (now part of Clear Channel) in Rennes.

Due to an unexpectedly high rate of vandalism compared to the Lyon bicycle hire system, the Paris City Council has agreed to pay replacement costs of $500 per vandalised bicycle, leading to expected costs of up to 2 million euro per year."

Vélib' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now that's for the second largest bike sharing operation in the world. It sounds like, even though the company doesn't see the revenue, there is some profit being turned over to the city. Also, ~$2.4mil in replacement costs is pretty small compared to the size a popularity of the bike network.

DC is probably a better sized system to look at. It still feels comprehensive and covers an area roughly the size of "inner" Philadelphia.

"The cost of planning, implementation and administration for Capital Bikeshare totaled US$5.0 million, with first-year operating costs of $US2.3 million for 100 stations.[80] The District's share of planning, implementation and first-year operating costs was partially financed by a US$6.0 million grant by the United States Department of Transportation. Arlington County's operating cost share of the plan was US$835,000 for the first year,[81] funded by public contributions including a grant from the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation as well as subsidies from Arlington County Transportation, Crystal City (Arlington) Business Improvement District, and the Potomac Yard Transportation Management Association.[82] In November 2010, Capital Bikeshare Director Chris Holben stated that administrators were hoping for future project revenues that would reach 50% of annual operating costs, exclusive of planning and implementation expenses.[83] CaBi recently announced plans to expand services with an additional 20 bike stations by spring of 2011."

Capital Bikeshare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know about you, but 7.3 million dollars to start and operate a bike sharing program for a year doesn't sound that bad to me. If they hit their projected revenue from adverts, the city would be kicking in around a mil per year to run a bike network that served 2.3 million riders last year, with 25,000 annual subscribers.

I get that the city has other funding priorities, but given the fact that we're building the next leg of the SRT for about as much as it would cost to implement this program, I don't think that it's that far outside the realm of possibility

[OffenseTaken]

Where is this done and why would a corporation spend millions of dollars propping up an unprofitable bike share? Everywhere I know if it, it is subsidized with tax dollars. Yeah maybe there are some ads here and there, but it seems like it would need to be publicly subsidized like every other form of transportation.

It depends: they can either make their sponsorship as conspicuous as they can and call it a marketing expense (as we're going to see when NY rolls out their program this spring) or they can be rewarded some other hugely lucrative contract that makes it worth their while (the Vélib' in Paris, which IIRC is funded by Clear Channel in exchange for control of the city's subway advertising).

You're probably right that public subsidies are inevitable, sooner or later. Maybe it's like any other mode of transportation, in that people will only use it if the cost is artificially low. Maybe we should just go ahead and call it a transit operation: sure, it's one that not everyone is in a position to use, but on the other hand, it's inexpensive.

[raider.adam]

I get that the city has other funding priorities, but given the fact that we're building the next leg of the SRT for about as much as it would cost to implement this program, I don't think that it's that far outside the realm of possibility

I guess to put it another way, if they had an extra million or more to spare for infrastructure, there are dozens of infrastructure projects I would prefer the money going to first. I just don't see it as a need requiring City Hall to spend money on it.

[radiocolin]

If you don't have to return the bike to its origin (which is a HUGE advantage), is there someone tasked with ensuring the bikes remain evenly distributed?

[OffenseTaken]

If you don't have to return the bike to its origin (which is a HUGE advantage), is there someone tasked with ensuring the bikes remain evenly distributed?

It is a huge advantage, and a huge problem as well. There's always a migration of bikes from outer parts of cities toward inner parts and from uphill neighborhoods to downhill ones. Worse is that one-way trips to the same few places (college campuses, train stations, monuments) are exceedingly popular.

In Paris there are trucks that go around at night to pick up bikes in popular spots downtown, like Les Halles or the Place de la Concorde, and drop them off in places like Monmartre or Montparnasse, or the suburbs. This not only eats into the system's budget like a mother****er, it also adds considerably to the carbon footprint of what's supposed to be an earth-friendly way to get around.

It's a sloppy, inefficient system, no doubt about it. But it's also extremely useful and fun, if the funding can be found.

[thoth]

If you don't have to return the bike to its origin (which is a HUGE advantage), is there someone tasked with ensuring the bikes remain evenly distributed?

Obviously every system is different, but the two I've used (DC and Velib) have maintenance guys with trucks that routinely check bikes for damage and redistribute to balance unequal usage. I don't think any of the systems require you to return to origin point.

I guess to put it another way, if they had an extra million or more to spare for infrastructure, there are dozens of infrastructure projects I would prefer the money going to first. I just don't see it as a need requiring City Hall to spend money on it.

I think an investment in transportation that runs in the low millions per year, but provides millions of of rides has a high bang/buck ratio. I mean how much does it cost to run a single bus line?

[raider.adam]

I think an investment in transportation that runs in the low millions per year, but provides millions of of rides has a high bang/buck ratio. I mean how much does it cost to run a single bus line?

Are you saying you are going to advocate taking that money from SEPTA for the bike share?

[thoth]

Are you saying you are going to advocate taking that money from SEPTA for the bike share?

No, I'm making normative statements about modes of transportation. I could get all philosophical and ask, "what is a transportation authority and what should they be responsible for?", but I think we can all spare each other that month long conversation.

I'm saying that if you wanted to invest in increasing citizen's mobility, a bike sharing network seems like a pretty efficacious investment compared to other forms of govt subsidized transportation.

[raider.adam]

No, I'm making normative statements about modes of transportation. I could get all philosophical and ask, "what is a transportation authority and what should they be responsible for?", but I think we can all spare each other that month long conversation.

I'm saying that if you wanted to invest in increasing citizen's mobility, a bike sharing network seems like a pretty efficacious investment compared to other forms of govt subsidized transportation.

But I think that is sort of the point I am trying to make. How high is the priority for City Hall to spend money on increasing mobility in CC? Between SEPTA, taxis, people's own bikes, walking, scooters, parking garages, etc. is mobility all that lacking that it requires millions in tax money for a new project? And more important than other things?