Realistically.... Will bikeshare philly ever happen?

[CComMack]

No, I'm making normative statements about modes of transportation. I could get all philosophical and ask, "what is a transportation authority and what should they be responsible for?", but I think we can all spare each other that month long conversation.

I'm saying that if you wanted to invest in increasing citizen's mobility, a bike sharing network seems like a pretty efficacious investment compared to other forms of govt subsidized transportation.

There are certain bus routes that exist for "coverage" purposes; they exist as lines on a map to satisfy political demands to provide locations with nearby bus stops, but run approximately never, with maybe a few extra trips during rush hour. I think we can all think of at least one near us that meets that description, and quite a few run parallel to a busier route a few blocks away. A bikeshare system is loads cheaper (and, for most people, more convenient) than an infrequent bus, as a last-mile connection. SEPTA isn't quite as insane a choice as an operator as it might seem at first glance. It would also mean that a successful bikeshare system in the city could quickly spread to the suburbs.

The opposing argument, of course, is that one of the primary revenue streams comes from advertising on the docking stations, and I wouldn't trust SEPTA's current advertising department farther than I could drag them through Fern Rock Yard.

[BarryG]

The opposing argument, of course, is that one of the primary revenue streams comes from advertising on the docking stations, and I wouldn't trust SEPTA's current advertising department farther than I could drag them through Fern Rock Yard.

Why? They've been aggressive and successful lately... like scoring the AT&T sponsorship, Xfinity sponsorship of Wifi in train stations, etc. SEPTA is one of the most aggressive transit agencies in the country when it comes to squeezing out all possible ad revenue. One example, the route number sign on the back of the buses is raised to the top right on SEPTA buses allowing more ad space; this is custom for SEPTA, most agencies have the route number right in the middle. Another example, SEPTA has ads on both sides of their passes, MTA in New York is just implementing this.

[thoth]

But I think that is sort of the point I am trying to make. How high is the priority for City Hall to spend money on increasing mobility in CC? Between SEPTA, taxis, people's own bikes, walking, scooters, parking garages, etc. is mobility all that lacking that it requires millions in tax money for a new project? And more important than other things?

There is probably one thread on here every 2-3 months started by someone griping about SEPTA's lack of rapid transit in emerging neighborhoods and key destinations. It's about greater CC. You know the list. The Zoo, The Art Museum, lower South Street. SWCC, Fairmount/Brewerytown, Pennsport are all cool neighborhoods that are relatively inconvenient to access even if you are acquainted with the transit system, which most tourists (I envision the system as primarily serving out-of-towners) are not.

In DC I saw the Howard U/U Street area, Columbia Heights, Georgetown and Capitol Hill in one day. Could I have done all that one the Metro? Sure. Would I have? Probably not.

This argument can be used against spending money on anything, but I think it rings hollow in this case because we already spend millions on things like the Phlash. Clearly increasing mobility for out of towners is a priority for City Hall to some degree, and in this case it would benefit a great deal more people and many residents as well.

I guess to answer your question, if the state reallocated $5mil from SEPTA's ~$1bil+ annual budget to implement a reasonably comprehensive inner city bike sharing system, no, I wouldn't be that upset by small service reductions. Hey, no more getting totally stranded by SEPTA or lack of cabs.

[raider.adam]

There is probably one thread on here every 2-3 months started by someone griping about SEPTA's lack of rapid transit in emerging neighborhoods and key destinations. It's about greater CC. You know the list. The Zoo, The Art Museum, lower South Street. SWCC, Fairmount/Brewerytown, Pennsport are all cool neighborhoods that are relatively inconvenient to access even if you are acquainted with the transit system, which most tourists (I envision the system as primarily serving out-of-towners) are not.

In DC I saw the Howard U/U Street area, Columbia Heights, Georgetown and Capitol Hill in one day. Could I have done all that one the Metro? Sure. Would I have? Probably not.

This argument can be used against spending money on anything, but I think it rings hollow in this case because we already spend millions on things like the Phlash. Clearly increasing mobility for out of towners is a priority for City Hall to some degree, and in this case it would benefit a great deal more people and many residents as well.

I guess to answer your question, if the state reallocated $5mil from SEPTA's ~$1bil+ annual budget to implement a reasonably comprehensive inner city bike sharing system, no, I wouldn't be that upset by small service reductions. Hey, no more getting totally stranded by SEPTA or lack of cabs.

This argument SHOULD be used when talking about spending for everything. Why on earth shouldn't it be about priorities? That is a big part of what the problem is, willingness to invest money into something that is flashy, but not necessarily the smartest use.

For all these projects the City does, we should always sit down and ask what the numbers are and are we not doing something more important because of it.

If you are saying "hey, we should reallocate from this program to this new one", that's fine. I just have an issue with a "just pay for it" approach.

[thoth]

It seemed to me that you were just using the "we're broke so we can't do anything differently until we're not broke" line, but perhaps I misread. The Waterfront light rail is flash. This is a proven model that has shown to be popular and is actually utilized in other cohort cities. Not to mention the fact that we've significantly invested in upgraded bike lanes and trails around CC.

Anyway, if money could be reallocated from SEPTA that would be great, but I'm not holding my breath. How much do we spend on the Phlash? Maybe switch funds to this and leave tourist busing to trolleyworks et al who already run a profitable business providing that service.

This argument SHOULD be used when talking about spending for everything. Why on earth shouldn't it be about priorities? That is a big part of what the problem is, willingness to invest money into something that is flashy, but not necessarily the smartest use.

For all these projects the City does, we should always sit down and ask what the numbers are and are we not doing something more important because of it.

If you are saying "hey, we should reallocate from this program to this new one", that's fine. I just have an issue with a "just pay for it" approach.

[BarryG]

It seemed to me that you were just using the "we're broke so we can't do anything differently until we're not broke" line, but perhaps I misread. The Waterfront light rail is flash. This is a proven model that has shown to be popular and is actually utilized in other cohort cities. Not to mention the fact that we've significantly invested in upgraded bike lanes and trails around CC.

Anyway, if money could be reallocated from SEPTA that would be great, but I'm not holding my breath. How much do we spend on the Phlash? Maybe switch funds to this and leave tourist busing to trolleyworks et al who already run a profitable business providing that service.

Phlash is about 300k from septa and was 750k from the state. The state money disappeared this year and it was made up by the city, CCD, and the participating institutions. It's operated by Trolleyworks already so presumably without the subsidy, fares would be much higher. Apparently CCD and the participating institutions thought that the service was not viable without the subsidy so I don't think that money is up for grabs.

[thoth]

Phlash is about 300k from septa and was 750k from the state. The state money disappeared this year and it was made up by the city, CCD, and the participating institutions. It's operated by Trolleyworks already so presumably without the subsidy, fares would be much higher. Apparently CCD and the participating institutions thought that the service was not viable without the subsidy so I don't think that money is up for grabs.

Hm, a relatively small fed transit grant for startup money and shifting funds from Phlash operations could theoretically pay for a bikeshare network (I understand the money is earmarked, but hypothetically). I know the phlash is popular and reasonably effective but I don't know if would serve as many people as an inner city bike network, and basically duplicates the function of (admittedly more expensive) tourist trollies and (to a certain extent) city buses.

[mixiboi]

Or they can find 23 million for bikes again...

Greater Philadelphia Bicycle News: Philly's portion of the $23 million TIGER grant

[BarryG]

Hm, a relatively small fed transit grant for startup money and shifting funds from Phlash operations could theoretically pay for a bikeshare network (I understand the money is earmarked, but hypothetically). I know the phlash is popular and reasonably effective but I don't know if would serve as many people as an inner city bike network, and basically duplicates the function of (admittedly more expensive) tourist trollies and (to a certain extent) city buses.

Bike shares are great for tourists, but a safe reliable way to shuttle families between sites it is not. Phlash is unquestionably more useful and should be higher priority.

[BarryG]

Hm, a relatively small fed transit grant for startup money and shifting funds from Phlash operations could theoretically pay for a bikeshare network (I understand the money is earmarked, but hypothetically). I know the phlash is popular and reasonably effective but I don't know if would serve as many people as an inner city bike network, and basically duplicates the function of (admittedly more expensive) tourist trollies and (to a certain extent) city buses.

While I think Phlash is too important to divert funds from, having SEPTA throw in some money for bike sharing could be interesting. As part of the deal with Phlash, SEPTA passholders can ride for free. A free or discounted "transfer" rate for passholders would help bridge the last mile of the rapid transit network and the scope of Center City is perfect for bikesharing, eg, getting between South St Distruct and Rittenhouse which can be annoying on weekends and evenings due to limited bus service. If bikesharing could be paid for with the new SEPTA fare instrument that would be awesome for both SEPTA and riders.

[raider.adam]

While I think Phlash is too important to divert funds from, having SEPTA throw in some money for bike sharing could be interesting. As part of the deal with Phlash, SEPTA passholders can ride for free. A free or discounted "transfer" rate for passholders would help bridge the last mile of the rapid transit network and the scope of Center City is perfect for bikesharing, eg, getting between South St Distruct and Rittenhouse which can be annoying on weekends and evenings due to limited bus service. If bikesharing could be paid for with the new SEPTA fare instrument that would be awesome for both SEPTA and riders.

Under that format, I would be curious to see the level of adoption with pods outside of 30th St and Suburban Station. See if commuters on Regional Rail would use it to get to work.

[Naveen]

Realistically.... Will bikeshare philly ever happen?

Sharing is un-American.

Just got back from some traveling and am now more of a believer in this than ever

Where did you go?...Europe?

Could completely change center city if done right

Sounds like you have the same goals as the UN-cabal.

Maybe ccd could pay for it?

Of course you want someone else to pay for it. Socialism!

[thoth]

Sharing is un-American.



Where did you go?...Europe?



Sounds like you have the same goals as the UN-cabal.



Of course you want someone else to pay for it. Socialism!

Haha, the whole time I was reading this thread I was imagining nickthecage having a lolgasm. Good thing all those dudes just post about national news.

Bike shares are great for tourists, but a safe reliable way to shuttle families between sites it is not. Phlash is unquestionably more useful and should be higher priority.

I agree that it has it's place and is effective, but I don't know if it's necessarily more useful. You take the phlash away and tourists still have trolleyworks, duck boats and (Yes, I understand tourists/families hate public transit) and regular buses, et al. Bikesharing doesn't really have an equivalent, given the paucity of bike rental places in or around CC.

But I'm really not trying to beat up on the poor ol' Phlash, I picked it more because it seems that diverting funds from normal SEPTA operations would be impossible for precisely the same reasons that inefficient bus lines already exist. Anyway, you clearly understand the potential of a bike network particularly with how it could increase the utility of normal SEPTA service, as I think most people in this thread do. I think it might even boost overall SEPTA use, I noticed a great deal of people in DC biking to pods near stations to catch the metro.

Really the discussion is just about how the hell to fund the thing. Maybe partnership with SEPTA and the city to share the burden? Or appealing to the state to increase SEPTA funding specifically for this program alone. I don't know.

[JJS]

Funding the program is expensive. Nevertheless, bikeshare programs stimulate urban economies. CTS Catalyst July 2012: Nice Ride spurs spending near stations

If a bikeshare program stimulates the economy, we can't afford to not do it.

[ArcticSplash]

Bandit Signs for Bikes.

Collect bandit sign fines, use them for bikeshare.

2 birds, one bike.

[OffenseTaken]

Funding the program is expensive. Nevertheless, bikeshare programs stimulate urban economies. CTS Catalyst July 2012: Nice Ride spurs spending near stations

If a bikeshare program stimulates the economy, we can't afford to not do it.

The researchers also found that Nice Ride users spent, on average, an extra $1.29 per week on new trips because of Nice Ride. Projecting that out for the overall survey sample amounted to more than $900 per week in new economic activity, or about $29,000 over the Nice Ride season (April through November), Schoner said. And extrapolating that for the entire population of Twin Cities Nice Ride subscribers would generate an additional $150,000 over the season.

That's against startup costs of $3.2 million. (I've got a hunch that the figure would be a few dollars higher here.) It's hard to justify that much public money being spent for such small private gain.

I look forward to the day when Philadelphia finally gets this, and every effort ought to be made to secure private sponsorships. If the time comes to seek even partial public funding, however, we should be under no illusions about the program's benefits. It doesn't replace any existing mode of transit; it adds a fun new transit option in some circumstances. It won't bring huge monetary returns for the local economy; it will enhance the experience of Philadelphia, for visitors and to a lesser extent residents, in a way that is certainly good for the city but is probably impossible to quantify.

[BarryG]

Funding the program is expensive. Nevertheless, bikeshare programs stimulate urban economies. CTS Catalyst July 2012: Nice Ride spurs spending near stations

If a bikeshare program stimulates the economy, we can't afford to not do it.

... unless the stimulus is worth less than the cost.

[BarryG]

Haha, the whole time I was reading this thread I was imagining nickthecage having a lolgasm. Good thing all those dudes just post about national news.





I agree that it has it's place and is effective, but I don't know if it's necessarily more useful. You take the phlash away and tourists still have trolleyworks, duck boats and (Yes, I understand tourists/families hate public transit) and regular buses, et al. Bikesharing doesn't really have an equivalent, given the paucity of bike rental places in or around CC.

But I'm really not trying to beat up on the poor ol' Phlash, I picked it more because it seems that diverting funds from normal SEPTA operations would be impossible for precisely the same reasons that inefficient bus lines already exist. Anyway, you clearly understand the potential of a bike network particularly with how it could increase the utility of normal SEPTA service, as I think most people in this thread do. I think it might even boost overall SEPTA use, I noticed a great deal of people in DC biking to pods near stations to catch the metro.

Really the discussion is just about how the hell to fund the thing. Maybe partnership with SEPTA and the city to share the burden? Or appealing to the state to increase SEPTA funding specifically for this program alone. I don't know.

I do think it would be huge for SEPTA and I thought I wrote that upthread. If you could use your Transpass for bikes, that would be amazing for SEPTA ridership. I also think that Center City and surrounding hoods are on the perfect scale for bike sharing as a valid mode of transit on its own. But you are talking about Phlash which is a very important part of the tourst economy. As I mentioned upthread, the institutions served by Phlash thought it was important enough to spend their own money on.

[BarryG]

The Nutter administration plans to seek $3 million from Philadelphia City Council for a "bike share" program that would put the first 650 bicycles on the street by early 2014...

The city envisions contributing $3 million, with an additional $5 million to $6 million from federal, state or private funds, to buy the bikes, set up the stations, and establish the program...

The area to be served by the bikes, at least at first, would be from the Delaware River to about 41st Street in West Philadelphia, and from South Street north to Temple University.

Phila. sets wheels in motion for bike-share program

[thoth]

The Nutter administration plans to seek $3 million from Philadelphia City Council for a "bike share" program that would put the first 650 bicycles on the street by early 2014...

The city envisions contributing $3 million, with an additional $5 million to $6 million from federal, state or private funds, to buy the bikes, set up the stations, and establish the program...

The area to be served by the bikes, at least at first, would be from the Delaware River to about 41st Street in West Philadelphia, and from South Street north to Temple University.

Phila. sets wheels in motion for bike-share program

Huge news. Sounds like a great plan with a reasonable price tag, but should totally go south of south even from the get go. Come on, Washington to Temple, River to at least 43rd street to capitalize on Spruce Hill/Clark Park offerings.