I Can Hear My Neighbors Pee

[raider.adam]

The Piazza invited the comparison through its branding, design, and marketing.

I never took the Piazza to claim it was the full equivalent of a renaissance era Italian piazza. Yes, it was frequently said it followed similar designs, but I can't recall it ever being claimed it was an equal.

Which is sort of my point. If Philadelphia development is being held to those standards, then yeah, Philly will always be viewed as a failure.

[loveisnoise]

The original poster proves that she is correct. He spends his time looking down on Philadelphia, and attempting to raise his loathesome self by chiding others.

[OffenseTaken]

Honestly I completely agree with her assessment of the Piazza. Oh it's great that it exists and was a major step forward for Northern Liberties, but it is definitely another example of how low people aim in this city. Daring to compare it to Piazza Navona is an absolute joke. Piazza Navona is in the middle of a thriving section of Rome, with businesses and cultural destinations surrounding it on all sides and a Bernini masterpiece as its focal point. There is constant foot traffic flowing through with people stopping briefly to take in the atmosphere and go on their merry way. Piazza Navona is large enough to be a public square but its buildings are spaced closely enough to maintain an intimate feel that blocks out the hustle and bustle beyond. The Piazza at Schmidts is spaced out more widely and sparsely dotted by any sort of street furniture, let alone major objects of interest. It doesn't have the luxury of thousands of years of culture on all sides - its north and east edges still border on no man's land, but that's no fault of its own. The low standards that laud the Piazza as an earthshaking development are the same that cause G-Ho specials to sell for asking price before breaking ground. We deserve better and should start expecting it. We abide by mediocre performance of our sports teams and are trashed nationally for being such hardasses about it, yet we praise mediocrity in almost every other sphere.

The idea of a European-style public square was pitched to sell people on the Piazza but little was done to make it actually resemble one. I won't complain about the TV because it's a great atmosphere to see Philly teams in playoff runs, and actually very much like the screens Europeans erect in their public squares to watch soccer matches on. But the public seating, astroturf, and most other elements of the public space are cheaply done and seem like an afterthought. "Oh yeah, we're calling it the Piazza, we should do something about that." Even the pavers made to mimic italian street paving and used as part of the the Piazza's branding are preformed facsimiles that betray their modular nature. There are enough cheap and half-assed elements to the Piazza to remind you that Bart Blatstein started out as a strip mall developer and hasn't completely left that mentality behind.



VS



Even the smallest Italian hamlets manage to repave their roads with courses of stone that flow together so smoothly. Why couldn't a multi-million dollar development that built its branding on that attribute come close? This is one nitpick, but it's one of many.

Now we are most certainly living in a new era for Philadelphia, one where there is growth in population and development like this city hasn't seen in forever. We're fortunate to have things like the Piazza to criticize and complain about, but there's no reason we should be content, especially since we're all trying to attract people to this city. People like the author aren't the gritty Philadelphians that have weathered the storms this city has faced, but they are the type of people increasingly choosing to relocate here and fund its renaissance.

All very good points. But let's say you compare "our" Piazza not with a prominent public space near the middle of the capital, but with a nondescript private space on the edge of, say, Genoa. Then the difference isn't so stark. So I think it's important to keep in mind that the problem lies not in the Piazza at Schmidt's per se, but 100% in the hype surrounding it.

This might sound like hairsplitting, but we live in a whole country whose standards when building public spaces tend to be really kind of atrocious. So when this cute, unremarkable private development opens in the Nolibs, we (as Americans, not just Philadelphians) ought to recognize it as such, so we know the distinction between good and OK when the time comes to build the truly important stuff. Independence Mall, for example, which I think even Blatstein could turn into something better than it is.

[loveisnoise]

Offense,
I always love your posts- but come on. For years less intelligent people have been blathering about 'the piazza' vs the euro version. What nonsense. It's a name and a bastardized concept. Even an exact euro version wouldn't be any different at this moment.

It would be equally fruitful to debate the quality of pizza hut vs real pizza from Florence.

[OffenseTaken]

Oh, I don't disagree with you (and thanks btw). Like I said, if you compared the Piazza at Schmidt's with an equivalent one in Italy (see link), it's hard to say which one comes out ahead. It's a nice spot, and I think overhyping it has left it vulnerable to some unduly harsh criticism, especially in the past couple of weeks.

[loveisnoise]

Oh, I don't disagree with you (and thanks btw). Like I said, if you compared the Piazza at Schmidt's with an equivalent one in Italy (see link), it's hard to say which one comes out ahead. It's a nice spot, and I think overhyping it has left it vulnerable to some unduly harsh criticism, especially in the past couple of weeks.

I like the piazza and the walk.

I also think in 60 years people will be looking at the Philly photo archives and ask why they were plowed down for better development.

[BarryG]

Wait til she discovers what a patriarchal society Philly is. i.e. if you're 9 years old but your busted outta your ma's meatloaf in Philly, you're a lifer. However if you've lived here 50 years but came here from somewhere else and moved in when you were 7, you're a newcomer.

What's the patriarchal part?

[BarryG]

On a side note, lunch at PYT was a lot of fun yesterday!! We had close to 25 people come out.

So is PYT saved?

[Malloy]

LIN as you know I deleted the BS from this thread. Brooke hasn't touched anything. Not sure why you are fixated on her.

[TLP]

This "article" does not deserve its own thread. The core of the article is a stab on all of Philly. I found it be insulting and am surprised it has Philly Mag attached it. What contributions is the "writer" making? Zilch. I already stated my opinions on the Philadelphia Mag FB page.

Philadelphia Magazine - Magazine - Philadelphia, PA | Facebook

Why would you be surprised? Philly Mag's business model is selling plastic surgery ads and doom and gloom stories about the big bad city to 50-something Main Line moms

[NE19149]

I certainly don't want to hear my neighbors piss hit the bowl - I'd feel like I was in some cheap housing development.

[thesomersteam]

Why would you be surprised? Philly Mag's business model is selling plastic surgery ads and doom and gloom stories about the big bad city to 50-something Main Line moms

I am a subscriber to Philadelphia Magazine, but hardly ever read it. I usually put a copy of it out in the office lobby so am not 100 percent familiar with their model but have heard this recently. I just know if I see an article that is so off-base often times I will do a counter article or blog. And in this case, I invited the journalist over for lunch on me last week and she still has an open invitation to come to the NLBOA (which I am a member of) this coming up week as well.

If she would have happened to come by the Piazza on Sunday, there was another great event for the pups and kittens in regards to adoption day. That means a lot to us as about a year ago today we adopted/resuced a kitten from Chic Petique / Chez Bow Wow at Liberties Walk.

[alex]

I don't live in the Piazza, but I've heard a lot of complaints from current and former residents about the poor construction and that management is very slow to fix things. Her article sounds pretty consistent with that.

[3rd&Brown]

I don't think the article is all bad. In any case, I just think calling it the Piazza was a stupid move, especially because the modernity of the buildings call more of a reference to East Berlin than to Rome. But what would you expect from Bart? He lives in a faux villa in Gladwyne, I'm sure the interior of which is gilded liberally in marble. He just doesn't have good taste.

I still thank god this is what got built instead of what he wanted to build there (which was a faux literal interpretation of the Piazza Navona).

But that being said, there are plenty of things he totally cheaped out on, many of which don't cost a lot, all of which are lost opportunities.

My biggest beef with the place is that he owns the entire city square block between Germantown, 2nd, New Market, and Laurel and he was too cheap to think of burying the electric lines which now span the entire 2nd Street corridor. Talk about missed opportunity.

The other little things are just complete schlock. The lawn chairs? He couldn't pick up 10 nice lawn chairs at DWR, Crate & Barrel, or Room & Board? Ditto for the astroturf, the vertical blinds in the two newest buildings (the original has curtains, which undoubtedly cost more), and the god-awful PVC fence used to rope off PYT's outdoor seating area. The worst offender is the outdoor seating at Darlings. They have a mid-century modern interior, which is quite awesome, and a bunch of filigree iron chairs and tables that look more like they belong in a backyard in Marlton than they do sitting in front of the Piazza.

I do think it's odd she calls us out for setting our expectations too low. I'm wondering what commercial architectural masterpiece she's channeling from her time in LA that would serve as inspiration. Because as far as I remember, the vast majority of buildings on LA's commercial corridors are squat stucco boxes with window punchouts or completely anonymous strip malls.

[NickFromGtown]

I live in Germantown, so I am no stranger to architectural excellence. I also hate cheap construction techniques.

With that said, I find some of the comments on this thread to be absolutely asinine. The Piazza is more than a building - it is an idea that has been realized fantastically. If you think the Piazza is campy, please juxtapose it with Xfinity Live! and then maybe you'll realize how good it is.

And as for cheaping out, I wish every street in the city could be concrete and Belgian block as Germantown Ave is through Northwest Philadelphia, but the reality of the situation is that some things cost too much. I'd rather have the Piazza built as it is now with its Ikea chairs than having a masonry masterpiece as an AutoCAD file on some architect's computer.

I mean, I wish I could have replaced the slate on my house with more slate instead of architectural and designer shingles, but at some point my financial viability became a deciding factor over my aesthetic desires.

[the mule]

I never took the Piazza to claim it was the full equivalent of a renaissance era Italian piazza. Yes, it was frequently said it followed similar designs, but I can't recall it ever being claimed it was an equal.

Which is sort of my point. If Philadelphia development is being held to those standards, then yeah, Philly will always be viewed as a failure.

Missing the point. I don't expect it to be an equal, or anything close to it, nobody does. For one, Bernini and Borromini are long dead, but elements that might cut down on its vast concrete wasteland feel would go a long way. Fortunately that's pretty easy to fix by well thought out additions to the open area. The Piazza is, and should be its own unique thing. It is meant to evoke the feeling of an Italian piazza with a decidedly Philly twist, but the only things it has in common are buildings on each side, pavers, and public seating. The public square atmosphere is at most times sorely lacking. Like I said before, some of that will change as the rest of the area develops, but as a self-sustaining draw it really falls flat.

All very good points. But let's say you compare "our" Piazza not with a prominent public space near the middle of the capital, but with a nondescript private space on the edge of, say, Genoa. Then the difference isn't so stark. So I think it's important to keep in mind that the problem lies not in the Piazza at Schmidt's per se, but 100% in the hype surrounding it.

Oh there are horrendous Italian buildings and public spaces so I'm not going there, but your point is the major part of the story that's been left unsaid. Blatstein hyped it as a public destination with the Piazza Navona comparisons, treating it as an anchor for Northern Liberties. He invited much more public opinion than the development would have received otherwise; because they can go there and lounge about people feel that they have some kind of ownership over the space and bring all the expectations that come with it. The article, this thread, and everything I've written are all symptoms of that. Bart Blatstein still doesn't care about anything we say here, it was his project and he considers it a success.

I drive by Naval Square and smirk because it's ugly to me and has a lot of the same complaints about it that the Piazza has, but I don't have anything invested in there because I never have any reason to set foot inside those gates. It will never have the same kind of scrutiny because all of its space is private.

The Piazza is more than a building - it is an idea that has been realized fantastically. If you think the Piazza is campy, please juxtapose it with Xfinity Live! and then maybe you'll realize how good it is.

This is exactly the type of reasoning that the author is criticizing. Xfinitiy Live! is the straw man. It's godawful. That doesn't mean that anything marginally better than it is all we should strive for.

[OffenseTaken]

I do think it's odd she calls us out for setting our expectations too low. I'm wondering what commercial architectural masterpiece she's channeling from her time in LA that would serve as inspiration. Because as far as I remember, the vast majority of buildings on LA's commercial corridors are squat stucco boxes with window punchouts or completely anonymous strip malls.

That's what I found gauche about the piece: it just didn't make sense to use her criticism of the Piazza at Schmidt's to illustrate of her argument about what ails Philadelphia in general. Is the worth of things never exaggerated by anyone in Los Angeles or New York?

The important lesson that I think is worth generalizing from the criticism—and here her article succeeds somewhat—is that, as a private development, it's only as good as it needs to be to draw customers and tenants. And in that regard it succeeds nicely enough. But we really can't rely on developers like Blatstein to build ersatz public spaces while our real public spaces are barren and decrepit.

[raider.adam]

That's what I found gauche about the piece: it just didn't make sense to use her criticism of the Piazza at Schmidt's to illustrate of her argument about what ails Philadelphia in general. Is the worth of things never exaggerated by anyone in Los Angeles or New York?

The important lesson that I think is worth generalizing from the criticism—and here her article succeeds somewhat—is that, as a private development, it's only as good as it needs to be to draw customers and tenants. And in that regard it succeeds nicely enough. But we really can't rely on developers like Blatstein to build ersatz public spaces while our real public spaces are barren and decrepit.

Is ersatz the word you meant to use? Other than that, I agree with what you say. The piazza isn't self sustainable. It is added part of a private development in a redeveloping neighborhood and for that I think it does a fine job.

[OffenseTaken]

Is ersatz the word you meant to use? Other than that, I agree with what you say. The piazza isn't self sustainable. It is added part of a private development in a redeveloping neighborhood and for that I think it does a fine job.

Sure: I mean ersatz as in "standing in for, but not as good as." In fact most of it is not really "public" at all. (The Hancock Street side is, in spite of what certain PYT employees told the press last week.)

[loveisnoise]

Sure: I mean ersatz as in "standing in for, but not as good as." In fact most of it is not really "public" at all. (The Hancock Street side is, in spite of what certain PYT employees told the press last week.)

Speaking of Hancock-
The Hancock Side is the fault of the developer. The storefronts were stretched to accommodate bigger uses like restaurants, and now 1/2 of the Hancock side just looks like the back door for several establishments. It makes it impossible to create any viable business on Hancock. I would suggest that that side be destination businesses like salons or yoga/karate/class type places, but right now it just looks like a service entrance area with no life.