New at the Piazza: Another generic, boring bar/restaurant

[philly57]

Saw this article posted on skyscraper.com: Urban entertainment districts: Blocks where no one has fun - Salon.com

I wouldn't call the Piazza an extreme example of a contrived entertainment district (like Xfinity Live), but it definitely has some elements of that. I think that the Piazza is very well designed and it is devoid of chains, has a major residential component to it, and generally fits into the neighborhood's fabric (again as opposed to Xfinity Live). But I think the fact that it was "developed overnight" rather than organically created, it doesn't attract the type of places that the non-Piazza properties get.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting article that somewhat fits into people's opinions of the Piazza.

[loveisnoise]

The piazza has a lot of unanswered questions, which will be its own demise. The developer is currently building overpriced condos along the perimeter. When they all move in? Neighbors who will not tolerate noise. Events will stop.

And then there's the big hole that is now parking. It will be filled with something. Probably residential. Less parking, more headaches.

Finally- and I guarantee this. The piazza apartments will become condos. More owners that will cause a demise to anything decent business wise.

Saw this article posted on skyscraper.com: Urban entertainment districts: Blocks where no one has fun - Salon.com

I wouldn't call the Piazza an extreme example of a contrived entertainment district (like Xfinity Live), but it definitely has some elements of that. I think that the Piazza is very well designed and it is devoid of chains, has a major residential component to it, and generally fits into the neighborhood's fabric (again as opposed to Xfinity Live). But I think the fact that it was "developed overnight" rather than organically created, it doesn't attract the type of places that the non-Piazza properties get.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting article that somewhat fits into people's opinions of the Piazza.

[Ray K.]

I eat lunch in and around the Piazza three to four times a week and find the place basically dead (maybe Darlings has some folks but certainly far from a rush). I would expect folks out when a Phillies afternoon game is shown (especially last season) but it is also a ghost town during game time. Maybe the area just lacks the office/work crowd to maintain a steady flow of business during the day. I do see a much better crowd when I hang out after work.

In terms of the Family Dollar - I get both home and office supplies there. I do find the decision to only have access through the garage odd. It makes that entire stretch on 2nd Street very desolate.

[It'sJessMe]

In terms of the Family Dollar - I get both home and office supplies there. I do find the decision to only have access through the garage odd. It makes that entire stretch on 2nd Street very desolate.

Almost every time I leave the gym there, as I wait for that endless light to turn onto 2nd, I see people trying to figure out how to get into Family Dollar. If I honk and get their attention I direct them to the garage, but often they just walk away. I know there are signs but they're high and not that big. And not on the doors people are trying to open! I really can't fathom the decision.

[loveisnoise]

They, as well as Super Fresh, don't care about what they consider to be minuscule walk up traffic. The old way with these idiotic designs is to cater to the person with a car.

Dollar stores, drug stores, etc. maximize shelving space for products while making sure that employees are kept at a minimum. If door ways were open on both sides, then cash registers, employees, security, and every thing else would have to be doubled.

All you have to do is go to the idiocy that is the Gallery Mall Kmart to see what happens with multiple store entrances/exits.

Almost every time I leave the gym there, as I wait for that endless light to turn onto 2nd, I see people trying to figure out how to get into Family Dollar. If I honk and get their attention I direct them to the garage, but often they just walk away. I know there are signs but they're high and not that big. And not on the doors people are trying to open! I really can't fathom the decision.

[It'sJessMe]

They, as well as Super Fresh, don't care about what they consider to be minuscule walk up traffic. The old way with these idiotic designs is to cater to the person with a car.

Dollar stores, drug stores, etc. maximize shelving space for products while making sure that employees are kept at a minimum. If door ways were open on both sides, then cash registers, employees, security, and every thing else would have to be doubled.

All you have to do is go to the idiocy that is the Gallery Mall Kmart to see what happens with multiple store entrances/exits.

Yeah, I guess I did know the rationale I just was wishing it weren't the case. That block is so desolate.

[BarryG]

They, as well as Super Fresh, don't care about what they consider to be minuscule walk up traffic. The old way with these idiotic designs is to cater to the person with a car.

Dollar stores, drug stores, etc. maximize shelving space for products while making sure that employees are kept at a minimum. If door ways were open on both sides, then cash registers, employees, security, and every thing else would have to be doubled.

All you have to do is go to the idiocy that is the Gallery Mall Kmart to see what happens with multiple store entrances/exits.

Is this part of the amazing, urban design the Piazza is so lauded for?

[loveisnoise]

Is this part of the amazing, urban design the Piazza is so lauded for?

Exactly.

To me, it is a mess. It could have been real easy. Super fresh on the first, offices on the second floor. Without office jobs, any chance of 'decent' restaurants and shops at the piazza is a pipe dream. Office space brings people around at breakfast, lunch, and after work.

Additionally, what happens when something gets built on the piazza parking pit? All of the restaurants use that area for their dumpsters, and residents and customers use it to park. Once that is gone? The utopia is going to be parking hell.

[loveisnoise]

Yeah, I guess I did know the rationale I just was wishing it weren't the case. That block is so desolate.

Yeah-I walk by it every day and right now all the place is doing is attracting bums. PPA could make some decent money if they just sat someone at the liquor store to ticket all of the people that drive up and park illegally to run into the liquor store.

[It'sJessMe]

Additionally, what happens when something gets built on the piazza parking pit? All of the restaurants use that area for their dumpsters, and residents and customers use it to park. Once that is gone? The utopia is going to be parking hell.

Is that just doom and gloom talking or are there actual plans in progress for it?

[loveisnoise]

Is that just doom and gloom talking or are there actual plans in progress for it?

No plans for it but they'll obviously build something on the space since he's already building the perimeter out with townhouses.

[BarryG]

Exactly.

To me, it is a mess. It could have been real easy. Super fresh on the first, offices on the second floor. Without office jobs, any chance of 'decent' restaurants and shops at the piazza is a pipe dream. Office space brings people around at breakfast, lunch, and after work.

eh not so sure about this.. plenty of "decent" and better than decent restaurants are open for dinner only... obviously office jobs bring daytime and after work customers but E Passyunk has much better quality restaurants than the Piazza, many only open for dinner, and probably roughly the same number of nearby office jobs, maybe even less.

The difference is that the Piazza has large spaces and high rents (or maybe just a f'd up landlord, same difference). Even though the Piazza doesn't have any chain restaurants, the reality is that the type of restaurant it is attracting is basically the same as a chain, just locally owned and slanted towards the 21-35 demographic without kids. It is not really different from the planned urban playgrounds discussed above, except that the businesses happen to be locally owned.

The retail is better on E Passyunk too... just ask Fabric Horse.

[phljoe]

It's not always desolate. Family Dollar opens the 2nd St door when its delivery truck arrives. The truck parks at the curb and they put a roller ramp from the truck into the store, thereby blocking the sidewalk. You have to walk in the street to get around it. Real nice.

[loveisnoise]

Whether people like or hate PYT, I think they actually get the area where most people fail. They know what they're doing party wise and niche food wise.

I'm business associates with an owner of gunner's run. I know just about everyone that works in there. I really want to love the place, but they just aren't there yet. I think they really have to look at pyt and see how nightly events, specials, etc. help their daily bottom line.

Across the way, el camino is one of my favorite. Bar Ferdinand isn't my speed, but I went on a date once and liked it-even if I didn't like paying $15 per drop of sangria. That bill was a bit too high to end up just being friends...hahahaha

eh not so sure about this.. plenty of "decent" and better than decent restaurants are open for dinner only... obviously office jobs bring daytime and after work customers but E Passyunk has much better quality restaurants than the Piazza, many only open for dinner, and probably roughly the same number of nearby office jobs, maybe even less.

The difference is that the Piazza has large spaces and high rents (or maybe just a f'd up landlord, same difference). Even though the Piazza doesn't have any chain restaurants, the reality is that the type of restaurant it is attracting is basically the same as a chain, just locally owned and slanted towards the 21-35 demographic without kids. It is not really different from the planned urban playgrounds discussed above, except that the businesses happen to be locally owned.

The retail is better on E Passyunk too... just ask Fabric Horse.

[BarryG]

Whether people like or hate PYT, I think they actually get the area where most people fail. They know what they're doing party wise and niche food wise.

I'm business associates with an owner of gunner's run. I know just about everyone that works in there. I really want to love the place, but they just aren't there yet. I think they really have to look at pyt and see how nightly events, specials, etc. help their daily bottom line.

Across the way, el camino is one of my favorite. Bar Ferdinand isn't my speed, but I went on a date once and liked it-even if I didn't like paying $15 per drop of sangria. That bill was a bit too high to end up just being friends...hahahaha

Yes PYT is the exception but it could have been anywhere... being the Piazza does nothing for it. It's like if the Barbary was in the Piazza. Haven't had a good experience at El Camino Real and in any case it's certainly not somewhere to come to from outside the neighborhood. Bar Ferdinand is ok, not unique and not as good as Amada or Tinto but also a little bit cheaper. Modo Mio, Paesano's, Koo Zee Doo, maybe Standard Tap (when it was good, haven't been back in a few years)... these are places to visit from all over the city and suburbs... any business actually in the Piazza--not so much. With again dance parties at PYT being a lone exception.

[thoth]

I agree that the superfresh pedestrian entrance as it stands is insulting, but I'm not too keen on the necessity of having the supermarket itself be at streetlevel. I agree that blank street frontage for market's footprint is also undesirable. I don't think it takes any sort of crazy redesign to solve this problem though.

1. Redo the pedestrian entrance to make it feel more open and actually welcoming, instead of like you're sneaking in a service entrance
2. Install an escalator

Problem solved.

Imagine this in reverse:



or like this

Exactly.

To me, it is a mess. It could have been real easy. Super fresh on the first, offices on the second floor. Without office jobs, any chance of 'decent' restaurants and shops at the piazza is a pipe dream. Office space brings people around at breakfast, lunch, and after work.

Additionally, what happens when something gets built on the piazza parking pit? All of the restaurants use that area for their dumpsters, and residents and customers use it to park. Once that is gone? The utopia is going to be parking hell.

[loveisnoise]

Escalators are pretty damn expensive, and the piazza isn't exactly known for its opulence since the concrete walls in the apartments remind me of my Pittsburgh college dorm.

I agree that the superfresh pedestrian entrance as it stands is insulting, but I'm not too keen on the necessity of having the supermarket itself be at streetlevel. I agree that blank street frontage for market's footprint is also undesirable. I don't think it takes any sort of crazy redesign to solve this problem though.

1. Redo the pedestrian entrance to make it feel more open and actually welcoming, instead of like you're sneaking in a service entrance
2. Install an escalator

Problem solved.

Imagine this in reverse:



or like this

[BarryG]

Escalators are pretty damn expensive, and the piazza isn't exactly known for its opulence since the concrete walls in the apartments remind me of my Pittsburgh college dorm.

It would ruin the amazing design that the community fought so hard to get.

[loveisnoise]

It would ruin the amazing design that the community fought so hard to get.

Well, it goes into the same payday vs customers vs entries. Like I said with the dollar store.

Super fresh wants a tight entry to control shoppers. And theft. It's a joke. The one night I argued in the self checkout line. My fake crab meat was coming up as shrimp for a lot more money. While the attendant was trying to figure it out? The self checkout area froze and I watched 3 people walk out without paying. Normally, I'd bust a shoplifter... But I couldn't blame them and just laughed.

[Ray K.]

The Super Fresh design bother me - I suspect folks drive or have their push carts (that's my way of shopping) so the elevator and parking lot are OK. Certainly not idea but with retail on the first floor (love the wine selection at the Spirits Shoppe) it could still work. I have my office across the street and was hoping for some additional pedestrian traffic but alas... it really hasn't come.

And on a somewhat unrelated note (though it has been mentioned) I love El Camino. Usually there at least once or twice a week. Too many times a later lunch kills the work afternoon.