The Divine Lorraine

[Jayfar]

How many City Halls are extant in Philly? Have we lost any?

I don't know. Do you want to count the various Town Halls that no doubt existed outside of Center City before the consolidation and are probably all gone? I know a Spring Garden Town Hall existed at one time for instance; I recall eldondre mentioned it in a thread here and there may be a photo or illustration of it in one of Chiosso's threads. I know I saw a pic somewhere.

[eldondre]

I don't know. Do you want to count the various Town Halls that no doubt existed outside of Center City before the consolidation and are probably all gone? I know a Spring Garden Town Hall existed at one time for instance; I recall eldondre mentioned it in a thread here and there may be a photo or illustration of it in one of Chiosso's threads. I know I saw a pic somewhere.

me too, it was around 13th and ridge.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ream/lightbox/
from titus' post in this thread
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/fo...ng-garden.html

[MarketStEl]

I don't know. Do you want to count the various Town Halls that no doubt existed outside of Center City before the consolidation and are probably all gone? I know a Spring Garden Town Hall existed at one time for instance; I recall eldondre mentioned it in a thread here and there may be a photo or illustration of it in one of Chiosso's threads. I know I saw a pic somewhere.

I should note that perhaps the best known of these, the one in Germantown, postdates the 1854 consolidation by about 70 years. It would be better considered a "Little City Hall" or "satellite city hall" - a district service center.

[billy ross]

I should note that perhaps the best known of these, the one in Germantown, postdates the 1854 consolidation by about 70 years. It would be better considered a "Little City Hall" or "satellite city hall" - a district service center.

I don't agree with this statement. Germantown's Town Hall was built in 1855, and it was only completed because the process was too far along to stop when the consolidation went through. It was redone in the 1920's, but as far as I know the beautiful building sitting there sealed and vacant today is the same building from 1855, with modifications. Keep in mind that Germantown Borough was only created out of Germantown Township (1683) in the 1840's (1848?). Roxborough Township was created out of Germantown Township in 1690, so Germantown used to be enormous, and the boundaries of Germantown, if they mean anything, were only in effect for only about one decade, if that.

I had meant the City of Philadelphia's City Hall. I had been vaguely aware that there is at least one other Philadelphia City Hall extant in Philly other than the City Hall that we all know and love. I wonder what happened between 1854 and the 1870's. In addition, I agree that the first floor of City Hall should be repurposed for commercial uses to enliven that area at night and on weekends. It is a dead zone that hurts North Broad. This problem will be ameliorated with the Dilworth Plaza renovations, but they will still leave the elephant in the room, which is a non-mixed use City Hall which deadens an increasingly crucial part of Center City. It could be a unifier instead of a divider. Fundamentally, it'd be nice to see buildings used, and I don't think that City Hall's present use is the highest and best use for that location. Converting City Hall Annex to an hotel was a start, though.

[harryk]

Then there's the Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties. The following if from my forthcoming book, Northern Liberties: The Story of a Philadelphia River Ward (History Press):
Rapid growth in the Liberties crowded the Northern Liberties Town House 9on 2nd Street],as it could not accommodate all the officers and administrators of the borough. So in 1814, the Commissioners of Northern Liberties purchased a large building on the east side of Third Street, midway between Buttonwood (then St. Tammany) and Green—where Spring Garden Street passes nowadays. This became the Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties.
The structure had been built back in 1757 by the Pennsylvania Provincial Assembly as the central barracks for British soldiers who were stationed in the Philadelphia area. The king’s troops had encamped in this zone since 1745, giving it the name Campington (later shortened to Camptown). The “aged John Brown” told annalist John Watson that the ground was “a field of buckwheat, which was cut off [down], and the barracks built thereon and tenanted by three thousand men.” Campington was between Second and Fourth, around Spring Garden Street; a parade ground faced Second Street.
Watson also reported that King George III’s birthday “was celebrated at the British barracks by a discharge of twenty-one cannon” in 1772. This shows how remote Campington (i.e., the North End) was in those days. Gunpowder and artillery supplies were stored in a powder house in the vicinity of New Market Street and Artillery Lane. Built in 1724, this was the first ordnance storage structure in Pennsylvania, if not North America. Artillery Lane was later named Duke, then Dana and then Nectarine, and was between Noble and Green Streets. It has long been removed; I-95 now runs over the powder house site. 013
The central barracks was a three-story building with a court room on the first floor and officers’ quarters on the upper floors. After the War of Independence, it was used as a tavern until the Commissioners of Northern Liberties purchased it as their new assembly hall. They first met there as a body on February 17, 1815.
Facing Third Street, the hall became a local landmark that hosted elections, civil proceedings and other public meetings. It was also used by various churches for religious meetings and services in the era when such gatherings could take place in government offices. In later years, the office of the mayor of NoLibs was in a separate cabin at the rear.
The Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties was used for miscellaneous purposes after city offices consolidated in 1854. It was torn down ten years later for the erection of Northern Liberties Grammar School (chapter fifteen). The Fire Administration Building now stands on this site at Third and Spring Garden Streets.

[MariusPontmercy]

Then there's the Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties. The following if from my forthcoming book, Northern Liberties: The Story of a Philadelphia River Ward (History Press):
Rapid growth in the Liberties crowded the Northern Liberties Town House 9on 2nd Street],as it could not accommodate all the officers and administrators of the borough. So in 1814, the Commissioners of Northern Liberties purchased a large building on the east side of Third Street, midway between Buttonwood (then St. Tammany) and Green—where Spring Garden Street passes nowadays. This became the Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties.
The structure had been built back in 1757 by the Pennsylvania Provincial Assembly as the central barracks for British soldiers who were stationed in the Philadelphia area. The king’s troops had encamped in this zone since 1745, giving it the name Campington (later shortened to Camptown). The “aged John Brown” told annalist John Watson that the ground was “a field of buckwheat, which was cut off [down], and the barracks built thereon and tenanted by three thousand men.” Campington was between Second and Fourth, around Spring Garden Street; a parade ground faced Second Street.
Watson also reported that King George III’s birthday “was celebrated at the British barracks by a discharge of twenty-one cannon” in 1772. This shows how remote Campington (i.e., the North End) was in those days. Gunpowder and artillery supplies were stored in a powder house in the vicinity of New Market Street and Artillery Lane. Built in 1724, this was the first ordnance storage structure in Pennsylvania, if not North America. Artillery Lane was later named Duke, then Dana and then Nectarine, and was between Noble and Green Streets. It has long been removed; I-95 now runs over the powder house site. 013
The central barracks was a three-story building with a court room on the first floor and officers’ quarters on the upper floors. After the War of Independence, it was used as a tavern until the Commissioners of Northern Liberties purchased it as their new assembly hall. They first met there as a body on February 17, 1815.
Facing Third Street, the hall became a local landmark that hosted elections, civil proceedings and other public meetings. It was also used by various churches for religious meetings and services in the era when such gatherings could take place in government offices. In later years, the office of the mayor of NoLibs was in a separate cabin at the rear.
The Commissioners’ Hall of Northern Liberties was used for miscellaneous purposes after city offices consolidated in 1854. It was torn down ten years later for the erection of Northern Liberties Grammar School (chapter fifteen). The Fire Administration Building now stands on this site at Third and Spring Garden Streets.

Very cool. I didn't know that many British troops were garrisoned in the city. I know there was a fortress at the base of Queen Street, about where the Coast Guard station is now, but that was garrisoned by the militia. In fact it was built with funds raised by several prominent individuals in the city at the time, Benjamin Franklin among them. If the crown was garrisoning some 3,000 troops on the north side of the city, why weren't they used to man the fortifications or provide a garrison? Seems redundant. Maybe the Brits couldn't be bothered to spring for harbor defenses, so when the colonists built their own they decided to man it themselves as well? I think I remember reading that they'd fire a gun from the walls at noon and midnight, or some such thing. The thing was really cool from what I remember looking at an old illustration. It had 12 foot tall, crenelated masonry walls and looked like a little castle almost. It was demolished to make way for the navy yard when it was located in that part of South Philly, before it was moved to League Island.

[the mule]

he's already mentioned it will news some subsidy but I'd guess you don't get a subsidy if you don't play nice with the union so the subsidy is bigger than it would otherwise ha e to be.

I'm not totally sure about this but it's pretty likely that historic tax credits require Davis-Bacon wage rates ("prevailing wage") which essentially eliminates cost competitiveness of non-union labor. At that point you're already paying union wage rates so you might as well get the expertise that comes with using union labor.

Notwithstanding the fact that this project wouldn't get done without subsidies, even in the absence of federal requirements Blumenfeld would use union labor in any case because he's not interested in fighting the unions.

[eldondre]

I'm not totally sure about this but it's pretty likely that historic tax credits require Davis-Bacon wage rates ("prevailing wage") which essentially eliminates cost competitiveness of non-union labor. At that point you're already paying union wage rates so you might as well get the expertise that comes with using union labor.

Notwithstanding the fact that this project wouldn't get done without subsidies, even in the absence of federal requirements Blumenfeld would use union labor in any case because he's not interested in fighting the unions.

that explains why you have to be rich to live in one of his developments I guess. that's why it's good to have several players, blumenfeld does interesting projects, post brothers aren't willing to accept the Philadelphia game as it is.
expertise? not likely, often times you have to bring in expertise (nonunion)and still pay a union guy to not do it...that happens a lot in ny. just the way it is. it's largely a fallacy that the best of the best are union, plenty of people with skills don't like being someone else's minion. anyway, that's interesting about the tax credits requiring prevailing wage, seems like a sure fire way to make sure they don't go that far.

[Cro Burnham]

Federal historic tax credits do not trigger Davis Bacon, which is triggered by direct federal financing.

HTCs are not considered federal financing, but a tax credit for equity investors in rehab of a certified historic bldg according to strict Dept of Interior standards.


I'm sure HTCs will be used here.

[eldondre]

Federal historic tax credits do not trigger Davis Bacon, which is triggered by direct federal financing.

HTCs are not considered federal financing, but a tax credit for equity investors in rehab of a certified historic bldg according to strict Dept of Interior standards.


I'm sure HTCs will be used here.

what about RACP funds?

[Cro Burnham]

what about RACP funds?

RACP funds are state grant funds that trigger Pennsylvania prevailing wage requirements which are similar, but not identical, to federal Davis Bacon requirements.

However, the RACP funds must be used in a legally separate component of a commercial project (not apartments or offices) that are generally open to and usable by the public, i.e., that fulfill a "public purpose". Public projects or not-for-profit projects automatically meet this requirement, but private commercial projects do not. The prevailing wage requirements apply to that portion of the commercial project that is being funded by the RACP money, but not the entire project. For example, at Comcast Center, as I understand it, the RACP funds were used to fund a portion of the public plaza and maybe the garage and/or food court too. I believe that these constitute a separate legal entity from the tower. Prevailing wage requirements applied to that the costs of developing the structure comprising that entity (i.e., not the tower) which was separately accounted for . . . although the tower was done union as we know, anyway, based on the waterless urinal debacle. At 2116 Chestnut Street, RACP money is also being used to do the ground floor retail and garage components, as I understand it, but not the residential tower. Again, the project would be separated into two pieces, the "public", RACP-fundable element, and the "private" element. Only the public element is subject to prevailing wage requirements.

This doesn't mean that the rest of the project isn't union - that's up to the developer, but most large projects are union. However, one of the big hassles with doing a "prevailing wage" project, in addition to having to deal with meat-head Philly trade unions, is the paper work and a very "by the book" state Department of Labor compliance office. The construction manager must complete prevailing wage payroll reports for every single worker on the project every two weeks and submit them to the state office. This is alot of paper, especially when you are dealing with a big project and a big RACP grant. Smaller or out-of-state CMs may not be familiar with the process or have the payroll systems set up to easily remain in compliance.

[eldondre]

This doesn't mean that the rest of the project isn't union - that's up to the developer, but most large projects are union. However, one of the big hassles with doing a "prevailing wage" project, in addition to having to deal with meat-head Philly trade unions, is the paper work and a very "by the book" state Department of Labor compliance office. The construction manager must complete prevailing wage payroll reports for every single worker on the project every two weeks and submit them to the state office. This is alot of paper, especially when you are dealing with a big project and a big RACP grant. Smaller or out-of-state CMs may not be familiar with the process or have the payroll systems set up to easily remain in compliance.

I believe I read that somewhere around 80% of federal tax incentives/credits go unclaimed because compliance is too difficult or expensive for most companies....across all industries

[Cro Burnham]

I believe I read that somewhere around 80% of federal tax incentives/credits go unclaimed because compliance is too difficult or expensive for most companies....across all industries

federal historic, low income housing, and "new market" tax credits don't trigger davis bacon, but are absurdly legally complex. basically, this means the added legal and accounting expense associated makes their use only worthwhile on projects of probably $10 million or more, depending on the circumstances.

[JakeL]

Link to Blumenfeld interview from WHYY on the Divine Lorraine: Divine Lorraine at center of Philly developer's plans for North Broad Street

A few details can be sussed out from this, namely, more two bedroom apartments and probably a speakeasy downstairs. Given the hipness of the 'speakeasy bar genre' (see: Hop Sing Laundry, Randstead Room, Franklin Mortgage), doesn't come as much of a surprise. Glad to hear that things are moving along and looking forward to seeing construction underway.

[carloss]

Best zinger from the article:

After so many others have failed, Blumenfeld says there's one word he refuses to tolerate.

"I don't like when people say 'hope' because it's a definite. It's not a hope anymore. We've got this tiger by the tail," he says. "This is happening."

Many neighborhood residents won't believe it until they see it.

He's really working the PR machine here...as he probably needs to. The cynic in me wonders, though, if we'll get a detailed plan for the renovation of the hotel and the redevelopment of the land behind it, punctuated by: "...and this is of course assuming that the casino at Callowhill goes through." :-/

[JakeL]

Did some quick number crunching. From aerial views, I've measured out the approximate dimensions of the DL, looks to be approximately 9,920 sq/ft on each floor. Subtracting 1,000 sq/ft for hallways, elevators, and stairs, you end up with 8,820 sq/ft per floor, with 8 apartment floors, giving
70,560 total sq/ft for apartments. Given that Blumenfeld said in the interview today that the apartment number may be smaller due to two bedrooms, I estimated 110 bedrooms. This averages out to 641 sq/ft per apartment, obviously with 1 bedrooms being smaller than this and 2 bedrooms being larger (will there be studios?).

I don't know a whole lot about the apartment market, are these smaller than average apartment sizes? A quick glance at the Lofts 640 layouts (640 North Broad Street, Philadelphia PA - Trulia) shows that many of layouts are much larger than the DL average, with even studios being larger, however, I'm unsure if these are larger than most apartments in general.

[AbortedWalrus]

I forgot to mention that I saw a small front end loader by the small brick addition behind the place. There was a roll off full of debris as well. I am curious if they will knock that portion down. It has few redeeming qualities.

Edit: just saw the education campus plan. I think it would kind of be a boring shame if the entire area is turned into a school campus. I want something more exciting in the neighborhood.

[JakeL]

I forgot to mention that I saw a small front end loader by the small brick addition behind the place. There was a roll off full of debris as well. I am curious if they will knock that portion down. It has few redeeming qualities.

Edit: just saw the education campus plan. I think it would kind of be a boring shame if the entire area is turned into a school campus. I want something more exciting in the neighborhood.

Don't worry, it'll never happen. For Blumenfeld to propose that Masterman, which ranked #1 in the state in PSSA scores last year, share a campus with Ben Franklin HS, which ranked 648 (out of 676) schools, he is either living in a dreamworld or posturing to get support for his work. Personally, I think he's posturing and was saying these things so that he could chum up city officials for the sheriff sale. The March article from the Daily News (Developer wants to merge 4 schools on land near Divine Lorraine - Philly.com) also says,

"Blumenfeld is also working with Caryn Kunkle, director of the Philadelphia Salon arts collective, to convert the hotel into a contemporary-art museum that would also provide arts education to students at a combined high-school campus."

Of course, tracking all his conversations since then have been around apartments and 2 floors of restaurants, nothing even hinting at turning the DL into a 'contemporary art museum that would also provide arts education to students.' Blumenfeld has done enough development in this city to know how to chum up the politicians and proposing arts and education programs always sounds wonderful. There are twenty different ways a school merger of this size would fall through, so he can always chalk it up to parent opposition, school funding, etc etc. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I don't believe he ever really had a serious intention of building a school campus here.

[AbortedWalrus]

The article linked alluded to the fact that he was still pursuing the school plan. It even links to a rendering. Also, As far as i know masterman was onboard.

[MariusPontmercy]

The article linked alluded to the fact that he was still pursuing the school plan. It even links to a rendering. Also, As far as i know masterman was onboard.

He hasn't tied it to any specific location though. He's still "pursuing" that plan, but last I heard when he was talking about the Metropolitan Opera House was that it was no longer connected with the Divine Lorraine block.