The Divine Lorraine

[annie]

?

[The Count]

A few thousand students at the corner of Fairmount and Broad would certainly be interesting. I'd probably want to give this area a pretty wide berth from about 3:00 to 6:00 on a weekday.

Developer wants to merge 4 schools on land near Divine Lorraine

[John Goodman]

A few thousand students at the corner of Fairmount and Broad would certainly be interesting. I'd probably want to give this area a pretty wide berth from about 3:00 to 6:00 on a weekday.

Developer wants to merge 4 schools on land near Divine Lorraine

So blumenfeld wants no residential at the Divine Lorraine?

I don't get it, I guess he is looking for alot of government $$ to make this work?

[raider.adam]

A few thousand students at the corner of Fairmount and Broad would certainly be interesting. I'd probably want to give this area a pretty wide berth from about 3:00 to 6:00 on a weekday.

Developer wants to merge 4 schools on land near Divine Lorraine

This goes into the "martians developing the DL will happen first" file.

[annie]

Blumenfeld is also working with Caryn Kunkle, director of the Philadelphia Salon arts collective, to convert the hotel into a contemporary-art museum that would also provide arts education to students at a combined high-school campus.
...
Blumenfeld would not say whether he's in talks to buy the hotel, but said he plans to purchase the 4-acre lot behind it for the school. He would seek state and federal tax breaks to build the school, and lease it back to the district.
...
Blumenfeld has redeveloped two old warehouses into apartments in recent years on North Broad Street - they include restaurants from Vetri, Stephen Starr and Joe Volpe - and has made no secret that he'd like to convert both Ben Franklin and FLC into more apartments.

His newly renovated properties are directly across the street from those two schools, and he admits he's interested in bidding for the school buildings if his plan becomes reality.

I don't know if I like all the dots I'm connecting here.

[eldondre]

So blumenfeld wants no residential at the Divine Lorraine?

I don't get it, I guess he is looking for alot of government $$ to make this work?

he wants the schools' property. why not shut ben franklin and move masterman here, and leave it at that? blumenfeld gets the ben franklin property, the district shuts a mostly empty school, masterman gets new facilities (not sure if he's interested in the masterman property but somebody would be).
I'm not sure I buy these ideas but I'm glad people are thinking about ways to bring it back to life. If you put museum space on the ground floor, how about hotel on the lower floors, and apartments on the upper floors? I think a piazza type development for the rest of the lot (think public plaza surrounded by buildings) might work.

[lemko]

Artist sketches plan for museum at Divine Lorraine

Wow, what planet is this girl living on? I believe she and Blumenthal have been sampling the wares sold by the nearby underground pharmaceutical merchants.

[AbortedWalrus]

This goes into the "martians developing the DL will happen first" file.

I sort of hope this is true. I don't mind giving schools new facilities, but that is not the sort of development that would be best for the area. Something without a residential and commercial component is just not the way to go. What this sounds like to me is that Blumenfeld wants to grab all of the PSD land, and use government money to bail out the DL.

[BarryG]

I sort of hope this is true. I don't mind giving schools new facilities, but that is not the sort of development that would be best for the area. Something without a residential and commercial component is just not the way to go. What this sounds like to me is that Blumenfeld wants to grab all of the PSD land, and use government money to bail out the DL.

If it's not cost effective to develop the DL without this kind of chicanery and he is still committed to North Broad for market-rate residential, as it sounds, this may be the best option.

[3rd&Brown]

he wants the schools' property. why not shut ben franklin and move masterman here, and leave it at that? blumenfeld gets the ben franklin property, the district shuts a mostly empty school, masterman gets new facilities (not sure if he's interested in the masterman property but somebody would be).
I'm not sure I buy these ideas but I'm glad people are thinking about ways to bring it back to life. If you put museum space on the ground floor, how about hotel on the lower floors, and apartments on the upper floors? I think a piazza type development for the rest of the lot (think public plaza surrounded by buildings) might work.

He wants all of the other properties, not just Ben Franklin.

And I imagine the Divine Lorraine would include residential above, with Art Museum below, but I haven't researched it.

To be honest, I think it's a pretty good idea. All of the schools are clustered in that area anyways. I assumed that Masterman would be the hold out...but according to a few friends in development circles, the hold out is Benjamin Franklin, which is ironic, because it's the emptiest, lowest performing school of the lot. It's also ironic because to parents, the plan would be more palatable if it DIDN'T include Benjamin Franklin, given they would share some facilities. Masterman, FLC, and Parkway are all magnet schools which are high to extremely high functioning. If anything, I say, consolidate Masterman, FLC, and Parkway on that lot in a campus like setting (hopefully very modern) and move Ben Franklin to one of the other campuses to free up that lot, which is the most strategic of the bunch.

If it isn't this, I always thought a Piazza type development would work on that lot, but the more I think about it, I don't think a piazza type development would work here. The retail component would struggle even more than that at the Piazza, IMO, and the surrounding demographics are not as good. The site is surrounded on two sides by projects and one side by desolation/Chinatown. Only the west side has good demographics...and it would have to be a huge draw to get anyone there. Given that, if it weren't a school, I actually thought a Naval Square type development would work best. Create an amenity packed development (without the walls) in conjunction with the Divine Lorraine that is an attraction in an of itself...to get a lot of people to move up there to bolster the demographics of the area...and then fill out the retail on Broad, with the support of those new residents.

[BarryG]

He wants all of the other properties, not just Ben Franklin.

And I imagine the Divine Lorraine would include residential above, with Art Museum below, but I haven't researched it.

To be honest, I think it's a pretty good idea. All of the schools are clustered in that area anyways. I assumed that Masterman would be the hold out...but according to a few friends in development circles, the hold out is Benjamin Franklin, which is ironic, because it's the emptiest, lowest performing school of the lot. It's also ironic because to parents, the plan would be more palatable if it DIDN'T include Benjamin Franklin, given they would share some facilities. Masterman, FLC, and Parkway are all magnet schools which are high to extremely high functioning. If anything, I say, consolidate Masterman, FLC, and Parkway on that lot in a campus like setting (hopefully very modern) and move Ben Franklin to one of the other campuses to free up that lot, which is the most strategic of the bunch.

If it isn't this, I always thought a Piazza type development would work on that lot, but the more I think about it, I don't think a piazza type development would work here. The retail component would struggle even more than that at the Piazza, IMO, and the surrounding demographics are not as good. The site is surrounded on two sides by projects and one side by desolation/Chinatown. Only the west side has good demographics...and it would have to be a huge draw to get anyone there. Given that, if it weren't a school, I actually thought a Naval Square type development would work best. Create an amenity packed development (without the walls) in conjunction with the Divine Lorraine that is an attraction in an of itself...to get a lot of people to move up there to bolster the demographics of the area...and then fill out the retail on Broad, with the support of those new residents.

Hopefully without a huge parking lot separating the residences from Broad St so they support the retail.

[eldondre]

He wants all of the other properties, not just Ben Franklin.

I understand why he wants ben franklin and the flc but masterman is a bit further afield (though still an excellent location). still, you can't always get what you want (or at least all of it). ben franklin should be closed, it's mostly empty and the kids that there are mostly out of catchment.

I always thought a Piazza type development would work on that lot, but the more I think about it, I don't think a piazza type development would work here. The retail component would struggle even more than that at the Piazza, IMO, and the surrounding demographics are not as good. The site is surrounded on two sides by projects and one side by desolation/Chinatown. Only the west side has good demographics...and it would have to be a huge draw to get anyone there. Given that, if it weren't a school, I actually thought a Naval Square type development would work best. Create an amenity packed development (without the walls) in conjunction with the Divine Lorraine that is an attraction in an of itself...to get a lot of people to move up there to bolster the demographics of the area...and then fill out the retail on Broad, with the support of those new residents.

I actually think it would do well even if it houses more functional retail than the piazza. the site iself is large and could accomodate a lot of residents. the south is spring garden east and there is a lot more room for new development there (as well as to the east...the big open space between broad and northern liberties), with many of the vacant lots owned by the city. north broad has a ton of potential both north and south of the site and obviously access via the subway is excellent, and broad is is a major commuter artery for those driving to the northern suburbs. naval sq and the piazza are somewhat similar, both have major open spaces. I live about two blocks from here and I'd say this end is retail starved and rapidly growing.

[3rd&Brown]

I actually think it would do well even if it houses more functional retail than the piazza. the site iself is large and could accomodate a lot of residents. the south is spring garden east and there is a lot more room for new development there (as well as to the east...the big open space between broad and northern liberties), with many of the vacant lots owned by the city. north broad has a ton of potential both north and south of the site and obviously access via the subway is excellent, and broad is is a major commuter artery for those driving to the northern suburbs. naval sq and the piazza are somewhat similar, both have major open spaces. I live about two blocks from here and I'd say this end is retail starved and rapidly growing.

Right, and potential does not equal reality. Retailers need residents in situ. Not the promise of more residents 10 years from now. Leasing to a destination restaurant (aka Osteria, Alla Spina, Route 6) is an entirely different animal than leasing to ho hum retail tenants. In the former case, people will come from far afield to patronize your concept. In the latter, you're relying entirely on the immediate area for customers.

[raider.adam]

I understand why he wants ben franklin and the flc but masterman is a bit further afield (though still an excellent location). still, you can't always get what you want (or at least all of it). ben franklin should be closed, it's mostly empty and the kids that there are mostly out of catchment.

And there is no guarantee he would get them. I would expect the SDP would put such sales out to bid to get the best price.

[eldondre]

Right, and potential does not equal reality. Retailers need residents in situ. Not the promise of more residents 10 years from now. Leasing to a destination restaurant (aka Osteria, Alla Spina, Route 6) is an entirely different animal than leasing to ho hum retail tenants. In the former case, people will come from far afield to patronize your concept. In the latter, you're relying entirely on the immediate area for customers.

you say ho hum, I say anchor. I visit some stores far more often than I visit alla spina. stores that bring people in, are good for the other stores. please don't confuse functional with ho hum...which I assume means low quality. pehaps the piazza should take note.
it's true that potential doesn't equal reality, but given what's been happening, I don't see any reason why that potential wouldn't become reality. if blumenfeld gets his hands on ben franklin and the site in question (divine lorraine) get developed (in addition to tower's ownership of the sob and inky) you're already talking about reality. spring garden east and francisville are rapidly redeveloping already.

[3rd&Brown]

you say ho hum, I say anchor. I visit some stores far more often than I visit alla spina. stores that bring people in, are good for the other stores. please don't confuse functional with ho hum...which I assume means low quality. pehaps the piazza should take note.
it's true that potential doesn't equal reality, but given what's been happening, I don't see any reason why that potential wouldn't become reality. if blumenfeld gets his hands on ben franklin and the site in question (divine lorraine) get developed (in addition to tower's ownership of the sob and inky) you're already talking about reality. spring garden east and francisville are rapidly redeveloping already.

um. okay. despite what you say, retailers need to see numbers.

do you want to compare income and population numbers for the 4 census tracts in northern liberties and the others in fishtown to spring garden east and francisville? poplar? have you seen the development at 2nd & girard? it's surrounded by census tracts that blow those out of the water...quite literally. and retailers don't operate without such information.

no way in hell you'll get a higher functioning piazza.

you'd be better served to focus your energy on all of the wig shops, chicken, nail, and hub cap joints on broad street before setting your sights on some mythical retail development that won't attract anybody.

[3rd&Brown]

Not to mention, I can't imagine the outcry that would come from the neighbors in Poplar if the proposed development was for "destination" retail, i.e. not for them. Fat chance in hell of that happening.

They don't have nearly as much leverage opposing a school complex, for god sake. Who would oppose a school complex housing 3 of the cities best high schools?

[3rd&Brown]

Destination?

REI in West Poplar? LMFAO.

I think Market East is destined to be what you're speaking about here. It would be nonsensical to create a competing entity before Market East is fixed.

[eldondre]

um. okay. despite what you say, retailers need to see numbers.
do you want to compare income and population numbers for the 4 census tracts in northern liberties and the others in fishtown to spring garden east and francisville? poplar? have you seen the development at 2nd & girard? it's surrounded by census tracts that blow those out of the water...quite literally. and retailers don't operate without such information. no way in hell you'll get a higher functioning piazza.
you'd be better served to focus your energy on all of the wig shops, chicken, nail, and hub cap joints on broad street before setting your sights on some mythical retail development that won't attract anybody.

wow...just wow. was there a need for this elitist rant?
REI?
despite what you might think, retailers like walgreen's pay pretty decent rent. I noticed that superfresh is a tenant over in your rich man's paradise. I guess only rich people shop there?
why do we need all destination retail? it's right on top of a subway stop at the intersection of four neighborhoods, three of which are quickly redeveloping. the piazza is nice, but 611 is a much more important rd than 2nd st. in other words, more convenient. I think you are falling into a trap that it seems besets many wannabe planners. when you're talking TOD, not everything has to be "destination." when you get off a subway stop, there should be things to do like alla spina, but also drug stores, bakeries, coffee shops, dry cleaners,etc. these are all part of a transit oriented society. just to be clear, by piazza, I only mean an open space surrounded by development. think of it as tivoli with commercial if that helps.
you may laugh, but there is big money on north broad that is betting against you.

[Radical Ed]

Wings Over Philly stands to make a buck or two if this all comes to fruition.