Union protest at 12th and Pearl is now out of control -Goldtex Post Bros

**the mule** · 09-15-2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by billy ross

You're proving my point, which is that prevailing wage is a squishy, misleading concept which is ripe for adjustment. I'm using the logical meaning of the phrase. You're clinging to the Orwellian newspeak meaning of the phrase. I think that the madness is ending and that 'prevailing wage' will start to mean what it sounds like it means, and not some fictitious number made up by the gubmint. That is what Mpest is referring to.

I'm just using the phrase in the way that it is almost universally understood in this context. Use it to refer to something else and nobody is going to have any idea what you're talking about.

When you run your shirts over to the local dry cleaner do you say you're heading to the liquid solvent cleaner? Because the logical meaning of the name would imply no liquids are used, yet they are.

The foul pole at a baseball field is in fair territory. The logical meaning of the phrase would indicate that it's foul territory. Do you call it a fair pole?

This whole thread has now been derailed by an argument over semantics. I'm not denying "prevailing wage" is logically inconsistent, but your one man crusade to redefine the phrase isn't going to go anywhere.

**AbortedWalrus** · 09-15-2012, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by mpest

In the construction industry, the term "prevailing wage" is used as a euphemism by union leaders (and followers) for "Davis Bacon Wages". Davis Bacon wage levels are set by the federal government, and are the rates required to be paid on federal government funded construction projects.

For the the Philadelphia area, the Davis Bacon wages do not at all represent what is really the "prevailing" wage. They match the union payscales exactly, and are set based on heavy influence by union lobbyists. This is clear even if you're not familiar with the political process, because the Davis Bacon wages for construction in Philadelphia bear no resemblance to that of other major cities, especially when cost of living is factored in.

For example in Washington DC the Davis Bacon wage rate for carpenters in commercial construction is $34, vs $63 in Philadelphia. In New York City the DB wage rate for carpenters is $78 - however NY has a 74% higher cost of living than us. (DC has a 12% higher cost of living). If you average out laborers, electricians, and carpenters; and factor in costs of living, Davis Bacon rates are 150% higher in Philadelphia than DC (IE 2.5x), and 55% higher here than in NYC.

The construction unions in Philadelphia represent less than 30% of Philadelphia county construction worker residents. (And a very narrow demographic slice). "Prevailing" is a complete misnomer, when unions say prevailing wage, they mean the Davis Bacon rates maintained by their lobbyists.

It is important to note again that Davis Bacon wages only apply to federally funded projects - that includes most University projects, anything funded by the PIDC, etc - but do not apply to privately funded projects like Goldtex.

You can see the government's required Davis Bacon wages here:
Wage Determinations Online

More info on this topic at:
http://www.phillybully.com/

Very interesting and educational. Thanks for posting it.

**Volanova** · 09-16-2012, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by mpest

In the construction industry, the term "prevailing wage" is used as a euphemism by union leaders (and followers) for "Davis Bacon Wages". Davis Bacon wage levels are set by the federal government, and are the rates required to be paid on federal government funded construction projects.

For the the Philadelphia area, the Davis Bacon wages do not at all represent what is really the "prevailing" wage. They match the union payscales exactly, and are set based on heavy influence by union lobbyists. This is clear even if you're not familiar with the political process, because the Davis Bacon wages for construction in Philadelphia bear no resemblance to that of other major cities, especially when cost of living is factored in.

For example in Washington DC the Davis Bacon wage rate for carpenters in commercial construction is $34, vs $63 in Philadelphia. In New York City the DB wage rate for carpenters is $78 - however NY has a 74% higher cost of living than us. (DC has a 12% higher cost of living). If you average out laborers, electricians, and carpenters; and factor in costs of living, Davis Bacon rates are 150% higher in Philadelphia than DC (IE 2.5x), and 55% higher here than in NYC.

The construction unions in Philadelphia represent less than 30% of Philadelphia county construction worker residents. (And a very narrow demographic slice). "Prevailing" is a complete misnomer, when unions say prevailing wage, they mean the Davis Bacon rates maintained by their lobbyists.

It is important to note again that Davis Bacon wages only apply to federally funded projects - that includes most University projects, anything funded by the PIDC, etc - but do not apply to privately funded projects like Goldtex.

You can see the government's required Davis Bacon wages here:
Wage Determinations Online

More info on this topic at:
http://www.phillybully.com/

Good post, thanks for the info. I'm presuming by your name you either are one of the Pestronks or are associated with them. I really hope you've taken a look at this thread and the others like it and seen what your dealing with when it comes to the unions: many of their members are individuals that will do and say whatever they are told by their bosses, regardless of the facts at hand. Please don't fall to these people, Philadelphia needs more developers that want to make this city a better place by turning around the neighborhoods that have been neglected by private and public entities for so long. Developers that are employers that are willing to pay people a decent, living wage without being extorted by the powers that be to line the pockets of union bosses.

I believe it has been shown that the vast majority of this city's (and surrounding area's) residents are full on your side. Don't take it for granted, as they (we) can be a fickle crowd, but so long as it's apparent you are doing what's right for the community, you'll have the community's backing, no matter how much you're slandered by those who oppose realistic progress in this realm.

**billy ross** · 09-16-2012, 10:26 AM

Not to beat a dead horse, but the rectitude of the "prevailing wage" in Philadelphia is the crux of the matter here. It may have actually meant the actual prevailing wage at one point, as Sandy suggests. However, it has been hijacked, and now it is a fantastical number. The Pestronks are going through hell to de-hijack it. Everyone is watching, because much rides on the outcome. If that number becomes more of a market-clearing number - that is, a number based in reality and not fat cats' machinations, Philly will have gone a long way towards solving it's Baltimore rents with New York City costs problem.

My guess is that Broad and Spruce gets built out by a chastened union that realizes there's more union dues to be had if the guys are working, even if the union needs to cut out some costs to make the numbers work. Maybe the cuts will come in fringe benefits. Maybe the mix of payscales will be cheaper. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by the mule

I'm just using the phrase in the way that it is almost universally understood in this context. Use it to refer to something else and nobody is going to have any idea what you're talking about.

When you run your shirts over to the local dry cleaner do you say you're heading to the liquid solvent cleaner? Because the logical meaning of the name would imply no liquids are used, yet they are.

The foul pole at a baseball field is in fair territory. The logical meaning of the phrase would indicate that it's foul territory. Do you call it a fair pole?

This whole thread has now been derailed by an argument over semantics. I'm not denying "prevailing wage" is logically inconsistent, but your one man crusade to redefine the phrase isn't going to go anywhere.

**MarketStEl** · 09-16-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by billy ross

My guess is that Broad and Spruce gets built out by a chastened union that realizes there's more union dues to be had if the guys are working, even if the union needs to cut out some costs to make the numbers work. Maybe the cuts will come in fringe benefits. Maybe the mix of payscales will be cheaper. Time will tell.

Unfortunately, like most established and entrenched organizations, unions are not that great at responding to disruptive change in a way that serves their long-term interests.

The railway labor unions in the 1950s insisted on holding onto steam-era staffing requirements well past the point where they outlived their usefulness and ultimately took many railroads down with them.

The social-services bureaucracy (and for purposes of this argument, I'll throw public school teachers into this bucket) is doing the same thing now.

The virtue of the capitalist price mechanism is that it serves as a wake-up call to those willing to hear it. But even there, many managers too have difficulty accepting the notion that long-term gain may require short-term pain, and those who find that notion difficult to accept usually find themselves out of business in the short term. Edited to add: That includes managers who are willing to inflict short-term pain on others without accepting their own share of the sacrifice - something that GM management demonstrated an exceptional willingness to do.

**JakeL** · 10-05-2012, 12:22 PM

So things have been quiet for about a month now, where does the project stand? I noticed www.phillybully.com is still up, how's construction going?

**thoth** · 10-05-2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by JakeL

So things have been quiet for about a month now, where does the project stand? I noticed www.phillybully.com is still up, how's construction going?

Seemed like work was moving along when I passed by a week and a half ago.

**Cro Burnham** · 10-06-2012, 10:18 PM

Hey guys, how was that yummy $200 steak dinner courtesy of ILoveBeer? Is he actually OK in person, or as insufferable as he seems to be from his posts here? Did he verify that no illegal immigrants were working the kitchen, or at least make sure they were being paid prevailing wage?

**City Man** · 10-12-2012, 02:05 PM

At least the gang and the cops created a sense of security; now the area is back to its former shadiness. Eleventh and Wood at 6 a.m. Roll the dice.

**mja** · 10-13-2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by City Man

At least the gang and the cops created a sense of security; now the area is back to its former shadiness. Eleventh and Wood at 6 a.m. Roll the dice.

I lived a block & a half away between 2003-2005. It has never been a roll the dice area. Desolate? Sure. Shady-looking? Okay. Roll the Dice dangerous at 6 in the morning? Nope.

**MNG1324** · 10-23-2012, 09:36 AM

I haven't been around the Erserhood in a while, how's the building progressing? i'm curious to see what they covering the outside of the building with. This building along with the 23 story building at 10th and Vine could make the gateway into this neighborhood change dramatically.

**mja** · 10-24-2012, 09:43 PM

So,

The union guys have set their sights on the good folks at Prohibition. I guess if the big fish swim right by you, you have to seek out smaller fish. The union guys think you shouldn't eat or drink there because the Prohibition folks had the audacity to hire their very good (and non-union) friend to do the work at their next venture, Bufad, which will bring authentic artisanal pizza to 13th & Spring Garden.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'll be stopping in for a drink one day soon to show some love.

**Malloy** · 10-24-2012, 09:51 PM

Me too.

**Cro Burnham** · 10-24-2012, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by mja

So,

The union guys have set their sights on the good folks at Prohibition. I guess if the big fish swim right by you, you have to seek out smaller fish. The union guys think you shouldn't eat or drink there because the Prohibition folks had the audacity to hire their very good (and non-union) friend to do the work at their next venture, Bufad, which will bring authentic artisanal pizza to 13th & Spring Garden.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I'll be stopping in for a drink one day soon to show some love.

Since I don't think ILoveBeer has yet honored his $200 dinner bet to multiple people in this thread, maybe he can just host an open bar night at Prohibition for all of us friends of his at PS. He always refers to us as "my friend", which I think is very sporting of him.

What do you say, ILoveBeer? Will you host a PS Open Bar night at Prohibition at least?

**EJW** · 10-25-2012, 08:39 AM

Apparently there was some sort of agreement, brokered by Rep Brady, whereby the unions stopped protesting and the Post Bros agreed to use exclusively union labor on their next project - according to the unions. However, the Post Bros are quoted as saying that they only agreed to allow the unions to compete in the bidding for the project... I really hope that after all the crap that went through they didn't fold.

Philadelphia's Post Brothers expanding