AVI is going to SCREW us!

**raider.adam** · 05-24-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by seand

There's been more than enough time. They have been talking about AVI in one form or the other since the first half of the Street administration. Its just Council has pushed it back again and again instead figuring out how they intend to mediate or smooth it. Its easier to say "Its out of hands" then to accept responsibility for your own plan on how to best deal with it.

Well, Nutter not having the numbers ready gives Council (and many good government activists) a credible reason to have problems with the implementation planned for this year.

And since all of the protections he has talked about require Harrisburg enablement, I am curious the timeline he has been on that. Has he been working on that end of it for years and no one from Philly was going to give him a hand, or did he wait until last minute because he didn't want to play his hand about the actual costs?

**seand** · 05-24-2012, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Well, Nutter not having the numbers ready gives Council (and many good government activists) a credible reason to have problems with the implementation planned for this year.

In fairness, it does seems like the BRT's old data does seem like a rotten onion, they go down a layer and they find its worse than it looked. I kind of doubt people will be any less pissed about their taxes changing next year than they will be this year.

Originally Posted by raider.adam

And since all of the protections he has talked about require Harrisburg enablement, I am curious the timeline he has been on that. Has he been working on that end of it for years and no one from Philly was going to give him a hand, or did he wait until last minute because he didn't want to play his hand about the actual costs?

I thought everybody's proposal requires Harrisburg enablement except for Kenney's because his bill uses an enablement Fumo got passed when Kenney was still a legislative aide to Fumo (which shows exactly how long this issue has been kicking around). Don't they all have the same problem? Am I wrong on that?

**sharkey** · 05-24-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by ArcticSplash

Yup. A partial payment and a signed agreement to pay some portion of your arrears is considered success, or... better than nothing.

Parcels get counted DQ no matter how many numbers of years of DQ there are. Obviously there is a "depth" to the delinquency, and that's measured by how many tax liens are on the parcel. Philly's got a large cache of parcels that started going delinquent back to the 1970s and 1980s.

On the ground level in viable neighborhoods, the City's approach to unprobates is a mess. There's a (EDIT: what's left of a) house on Mercer Street in Fishtown I'm trying to get into Sheriff's Sale right now. The house had an owner and the property was kept up. A years ago that owner died, then squatters/etc, house fell apart, I think there was also a fire. No attempt at collecting on the tax by holding a Sheriffs Sale. There's market-rate properties on either side of this mid-block rowhome.

Last year, the City had to come in to demolish the house. Still no Sheriff's Sale, even now, for the vacant lot. The best opportunity for the City to make recovery was within 2 years of the owner dying. Nobody went to Orphan's. The house sat there, with the deed dormant.

Now there's drug dealing going on in the vacant lot from time to time, and neighbors are trying to scrounge up the funds to fence the lot off.

A problem that could have been solved long ago now has already cost the city demolition fees (assuming that's an RDA outlay or it was paid through NTI funds), non withstanding the property value destruction it helped bring to the adjacent owners, plus the additional lost revenue by neighbors getting their real estate assessments lowered.

Maybe 95% is not a bad goal to attain? I don't see what the harm is in triggering a Sheriff's Sale automatically for non-compliance to pay property tax or to enter a payment plan. It seems with a lot of property owners who are still alive, they magically wake up and make arrangements to pay when they are serviced with court papers letting them know that the opportunity to sell their asset is about to be taken away from them.

For owners who are DEAD... this motivates the heirs to get off their collective a$$es and head to Oprhans Court if there wasn't a will, or the City will recycle the property back into the market for them.

Look at it this way seand... the Land Bank will speed up acquisition because there's no Sheriff Sale involved at all. Squatters? If you can get your Council member to agree, the Land Bank can go right in and just strip the deed with a quick trip to Common Pleas court (the PRA will formally file these) and the Land Bank board votes for it.

FYI, the heirs don't have to "go to Orphan's Court" if the deceased did not have a will. Both wills and intestacies (no will) are handled administratively and efficiently through the Register of Wills office. The Orphans Court only gets involved in disputed estates such as a challenge to the authenticity of a will or when the intestate heirs are fighting.

**Titus** · 05-24-2012, 04:31 PM

What distresses me is that my taxes could jump 300 - 400 % in one year! I can't conceive of how this will work for a large number of people. I'll be broke! and part of the financial reason to stay here has been the lower taxes than in the suburbs.

**seand** · 05-24-2012, 04:52 PM

Which is when you start to calculate property taxes and wage taxes in the city vs. in the burbs school taxes included, but property taxes and houses prices tend to be so much higher in the burbs that living in the city remains an pretty good deal. Doing business, not so much, but when you calculate living costs, it generally does pretty well.

**raider.adam** · 05-24-2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by seand

Which is when you start to calculate property taxes and wage taxes in the city vs. in the burbs school taxes included, but property taxes and houses prices tend to be so much higher in the burbs that living in the city remains an pretty good deal. Doing business, not so much, but when you calculate living costs, it generally does pretty well.

Well, you also have to calculate quality of life issues. QOL issues become more of a factor the closer the tax liabilities get. If your taxes are $2K a year less than another community, you are willing to deal with more than if it is $500 a year less.

But again, I don't necessarily hold to the premise that Philly is cheaper in taxes. Of course if you work in Philly that is a different story, but if you already work in Abington... that is a 3% raise in salary.

**ArcticSplash** · 05-25-2012, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Well, you also have to calculate quality of life issues. QOL issues become more of a factor the closer the tax liabilities get. If your taxes are $2K a year less than another community, you are willing to deal with more than if it is $500 a year less.

But again, I don't necessarily hold to the premise that Philly is cheaper in taxes. Of course if you work in Philly that is a different story, but if you already work in Abington... that is a 3% raise in salary.

Refinancing though is a simple way to offset the payment burden of the higher tax--assuming one's already paying a mortgage right now. You don't lose any equity as long as you don't do a cash-out refi, but you earn future equity slower, since you're resetting the clock on your remaining mortgage balance.

**ArcticSplash** · 05-25-2012, 02:57 AM

Philadelphia's Common Level Ratio gets reset:
Philadelphia Common Level Ratio Drama Continues | McNees Wallace & Nurick LLC - JDSupra

State Senators/Reps start rabble-rousing against the Mayor:
http://www.phillyrecord.com/2012/05/...uick-avi-hike/

The new millage rate for AVI might not even get through Harrisburg:
Complicated matter of AVI in Philadelphia grows thornier still

**Big Irish** · 05-25-2012, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Well, Nutter not having the numbers ready gives Council (and many good government activists) a credible reason to have problems with the implementation planned for this year.

And good govt activists and city council (and taxpayers) have every reason to be wary of the "trust me" excuse of passing AVI before the new assessments are made public. The mayor said the 10% RE tax hikes would be temporary and that's not the case. He wants to make them permanent. The mayor said AVI would be revenue neutral and that's not the case. He wants to raise taxes $94 million (on top of the two temp hikes) and he denies it's a tax increase.

Nobody should be paying hundreds for RE taxes, no matter where you live. That doesn't even cover trash collection. And it's only fair that those who aren't paying should should have liens placed on their properties and then have them sold if they don't pay up. That obviously isn't happening. But those of us who are already paying thousands don't want to hear we're "undertaxed". That is complete BS.

The old numbers are flawed for a lot of areas. The old system of collecting the tax is flawed, as many just don't pay. Why would anyone in their right mind think this "new" system would be any different? Why would anyone, why should anyone, fall for their "trust me" excuse?

**seand** · 05-25-2012, 12:13 PM

The old numbers are more than just "flawed". They don't make any sense. They are based on totally wrong data, like whether your house has two stories instead of three kind of mistakes. They have not been redone in a uniform way (as is required annually by state law) in 25 years.

This implementation of AVI could completely suck. But at least it will be based on current sales data you can contest. If you are paying taxes for a $400k house like its a $65k house and someone else paying taxes on a $65k house like its $120k and someone else is paying taxes on a $400k houses likes its really $400k, thats not fair and eventually the state will force us to fix it. But even though they city is piss poor at putting houses up to sherrif's sale in a timely fashion, the guy paying taxes on the $400k house like its $65k is still screwing his neighbors.

**seand** · 05-25-2012, 02:12 PM

In other news: Council president Darrell Clarke introduced bills that would provide the district with an extra $85 million either through an increase in business or real-estate taxes even if Nutter’s plan to switch to a new market-value-based property-tax system is altered by Council. Nutter’s plan includes extra money for the schools.

Councilman Jim Kenney introduced a bill that would give the Office of the Inspector General jurisdiction over delinquent-tax bills in which fraud or tax evasion is suspected. Such action currently falls under the Department of Revenue, but Kenney is not satisfied with its efforts.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/po...mpid=124488459

So if we get the tax hike with or without AVI and Clarke puts the anti-gentrification hike changes on AVI, is it still the worse thing ever?

Also why is the Instpector General better than Dep't of Revenue? Less career bureaucrats, more accountability to mayor?

**raider.adam** · 05-25-2012, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by seand

Council OKs online appeals of parking tickets

So if we get the tax hike with or without AVI and Clarke puts the anti-gentrification hike changes on AVI, is it still the worse thing ever?

Also why is the Instpector General better than Dep't of Revenue? Less career bureaucrats, more accountability to mayor?

The Inspector General and Dept of Revenue are equally accountable to the Mayor.

**seand** · 05-25-2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

The Inspector General and Dept of Revenue are equally accountable to the Mayor.

So whats the point? Card shuffling? Can't the Revenue Dep't ask the D.A. or Law Dep't to get tough?

**raider.adam** · 05-25-2012, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by seand

So whats the point? Card shuffling? Can't the Revenue Dep't ask the D.A. or Law Dep't to get tough?

I have no idea what the point is. Since it is an executive branch function, the mayor dictates the priority of the function, no matter which department is handling it.

And of course budgeting for that department to handle the work as well.

I am curious if this was a request that Nutter had or Council thinks they are helping. Being that it is Kenney, it is possible it is a request from Nutter... but the press really needs to dig into this stuff better. They need to report on the whys.

**Big Irish** · 05-26-2012, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by seand

This implementation of AVI could completely suck. But at least it will be based on current sales data you can contest. If you are paying taxes for a $400k house like its a $65k house and someone else paying taxes on a $65k house like its $120k and someone else is paying taxes on a $400k houses likes its really $400k, thats not fair and eventually the state will force us to fix it. But even though they city is piss poor at putting houses up to sherrif's sale in a timely fashion, the guy paying taxes on the $400k house like its $65k is still screwing his neighbors.

You're missing the point. Publish the numbers (assessments) and then change the ratio. Don't say we have to trust you that the numbers are correct and set the ratio first. It's a bass-akwards way of doing things, whether your house is valued properly or not.

We've been told this "initiative" has been ready to go for years now. Obviously that wasn't true since they are now saying they haven't completed the reassessments and that's why we can't get them before we vote on a ratio.

**MattReadRocks** · 06-06-2012, 03:38 PM

Someone just sent this to me,

Tax Savings are Knocking. « City of Philadelphia's News & Alerts

**phillysleuth** · 06-06-2012, 06:21 PM

Could someone educate me on how AVI will work? Who determines the actual value of my property? Just because some houses in my area, even on my block, have sold for $400K for instance, doesn't prove anything about what my property is worth. In fact, I might have a lot of trouble getting anything close to the other properties if I were to sell because theres is so much maintenance and upgrading necessary before I could even list it. I might even have to sell it 'as is' (assuming Iwas going to sell at all, which I don't plan to) because my health isn't the greatest and would make it problematic to address the large projects necessary to be done. How do they factor in the interior (or exterior for that matter) condition of a property? There are some very well maintained properties on my block. Mine isn't one of them unfortunately.

**6enny** · 06-06-2012, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by phillysleuth

There are some very well maintained properties on my block. Mine isn't one of them unfortunately.

Bet your neighbors love you

**EJW** · 06-07-2012, 09:15 AM

New article on philly.com says tax rates will be between 1.75 and 1.8% of actual value....

City Council poised to approve more school funding, new property tax system

**Titus** · 06-07-2012, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by phillysleuth

Could someone educate me on how AVI will work? Who determines the actual value of my property? Just because some houses in my area, even on my block, have sold for $400K for instance, doesn't prove anything about what my property is worth. In fact, I might have a lot of trouble getting anything close to the other properties if I were to sell because theres is so much maintenance and upgrading necessary before I could even list it. I might even have to sell it 'as is' (assuming Iwas going to sell at all, which I don't plan to) because my health isn't the greatest and would make it problematic to address the large projects necessary to be done. How do they factor in the interior (or exterior for that matter) condition of a property? There are some very well maintained properties on my block. Mine isn't one of them unfortunately.

My problem exactly.