Development in Francisville

[3rd&Brown]

I'd have preferred the onion flats version over the phoney townhouses. At this location, with no adjacent buildings to overpower, something interesting and lively could have been done.

While I agree that an interesting design would have been preferrable, Onion Flats has no money. While development is still progressing at a somewhat frantic pace in Northern Liberties, many of the neighborhood's largest parcels are currently tied up by Onion Flats. They have approvals, but no money. Hence, empty lots.

Although it probably wasn't part of the public discussion, I like what the city did here. It is smart policy from my perspective to encourage a diverse portfolio of developers to build in the city. Just the fact that Hankin is showing interest in developing in the city is a good thing. By including folks like Onion Flats in the discussion, hopefully what happens is that the traditional developers start to incorporate more progressive ideas about sustainable development (a la Onion Flats) into their proposals.

You don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket, the same way you wouldn't/shouldn't put all of your money in one stock or one mutual fund company. Diversification is the key to risk management, and if the city wants to jump start development, it needs a large cadre of developers available to do these projects. You can't rely on a few upstarts (albeit high-quality ones) who are over-leveraged and simply don't have the capital to complete their proposals.

Although the planning commission/city went against the neighborhood's consensus decision in this particular case, I think it was smart policy from the city's perspective. If Hankin can build this project (and it is in a much better position to do this compared to Onion Flats) and it does well (i.e. sells), they will be encouraged by their experience and hopefully try to initiate new developments elsewhere in the city.

This happened with Westrum in South Philly and the far Northeast (granted, it flubbed East Falls and Brewerytown). It is happening with Toll in Graduate Hospital...I wouldn't be surprised if they initiated another project on the scale of Naval Square in the next year or two in another area of quasi-Center City, like the Waterfront or along the new river trail in the far Northeast, or even somewhere in South Philly. It can happen with Hankin as well.

I think its also about time for Toll to initiate a high rise residential project somewhere in the CBD, much like it has in NYC and Brooklyn. I've been pleasantly surprised by their high rise residential in NYC. They fill a nice niche in the market up there, where many of the projects have outsized ambitions. Toll has proposed and built a number of good looking residential buildings which are low to middle of the road for price in NYC, and not of gargantuan size (i.e. 15-25 floors instead of the 50 story monstrosities being built all over midtown Manhattan). What is attractive about these more modest buildings is that there are fewer units, so it seems easier to pre-sell the required number of units (since there are fewer of them in the project) to get the project out of the ground. Center City could use some more modest mid-rise proposals for infill, something less ambitious than the Ritz, Ten Rittenhouse, the St James, or the Murano, which are just so large in size that the sheer number of units makes the numbers daunting.

[eldondre]

I'm not sure about the comment about it not being in north philly because of "parking requirements" since there's some pretty heavy transit ridership in north philly...seems misplaced

- Francisville: Bill 09-0851 allows the city to give property around 19th and Wylie Sts. to the developers of Cameron Square. There'll be fewer parking spaces than units, which means this is now Center City, not North Philly anymore.

Planners weigh tax, Market East, Oak Lane proposals | PhillyDeals | 12/07/2009

[eldondre]

there's two new buildings under construction on the 1500 block (south side) of fairmount ave, two more foundations have been dug. tonight I noticed a dumpters placed in front of the two long abandoned buildings further down the block.

[PhillyKev]

there's two new buildings under construction on the 1500 block (south side) of fairmount ave, two more foundations have been dug. tonight I noticed a dumpters placed in front of the two long abandoned buildings further down the block.

Aren't they part of the new houses garage front houses being built all around that block?

[eldondre]

Aren't they part of the new houses garage front houses being built all around that block?

the first four yeah, the two standing buildings, I have no idea. either way, good to see some activity on that stretch. it'd be nice to see some new businesses. not big enough news for its own thread though so I snuch it in here.

[PhillyKev]

I really like those new houses down there, and would consider one, if not for the existence of Prince's Fairmount Jazz house. When I moved into the neighborhood while driving past there and looking out the window trying to figure out if it was indeed a jazz club (it's not), the thug at the door yelled, "keep moving white boy". Not exactly who I'd want for a neighbor.

[eldondre]

I really like those new houses down there, and would consider one, if not for the existence of Prince's Fairmount Jazz house. When I moved into the neighborhood while driving past there and looking out the window trying to figure out if it was indeed a jazz club (it's not), the thug at the door yelled, "keep moving white boy". Not exactly who I'd want for a neighbor.

an old timer told me they really did use to have jazz there. prince used to be the head of the tavern association and had a lot of bars. what was less clear was if Prince was still alive and if so, actively managing his bars. Honestly, I think they're starting to get used to all the whitey's around (i got a comment the first time as well, it seems to be the place where the PHA'ers congregate, but not anymore and I walk by everyday). I wouldn't let that alone stop you from buying there, it's only a matter of time (would love to see jazz brought back) before that place is renovated. those homes (and the others in the area) seem to sell well so there must be a market for new single family homes in the city). the abandoned gas station on the north side was approved for 18 units. another formerly abandoned building on the north side was quietly renovated. my wife likes the salon across from prince's but they're not cheap.

[schoolofspool]

an old timer told me they really did use to have jazz there. prince used to be the head of the tevern association and had a lot of bars. what was less clear was if Prince was still alive and if so, actively managing his bars.

Mr. Prince is still around. He's still involved with that place, although I wouldn't say actively managing. Unsure if he's still holding on to the other spots.

[Titus]

I really like those new houses down there, and would consider one, if not for the existence of Prince's Fairmount Jazz house. When I moved into the neighborhood while driving past there and looking out the window trying to figure out if it was indeed a jazz club (it's not), the thug at the door yelled, "keep moving white boy". Not exactly who I'd want for a neighbor.

OT, but I think it likely that that tavern building is oldest building Spring Garden.

[eldondre]

OT, but I think it likely that that tavern building is oldest building Spring Garden.

yea, looks to be in the early 19th c style. there are some even older looking buildings hidden away in francisville. would make a great conversion. the 1500 block os getting several new homes as we speak. I also noticed rehabs on 19th near girard and some on girard itself. there's some infill around the park as well.

[raider.adam]

yea, looks to be in the early 19th c style. there are some even older looking buildings hidden away in francisville. would make a great conversion. the 1500 block os getting several new homes as we speak. I also noticed rehabs on 19th near girard and some on girard itself. there's some infill around the park as well.

Some of those buildings were rehabbing south of Girard before you moved into the area as well as well as infill. That triangle getting developed will probably increase rehabs in that corridor (hopefully speculators don't slow it down).

[eldondre]

Some of those buildings were rehabbing south of Girard before you moved into the area as well as well as infill. That triangle getting developed will probably increase rehabs in that corridor (hopefully speculators don't slow it down).

these are underway now, a couple of which were formerly abandoned buildings.

[Winston]

I saw a big lot cleared at 15th & Poplar recently. Any idea what's going in there?

Looks like el might be right about the "doughnut hole" approach to development. Several things are happening on the borders and, presumably, will move inward from there.

[eldondre]

I saw a big lot cleared at 15th & Poplar recently. Any idea what's going in there?

Looks like el might be right about the "doughnut hole" approach to development. Several things are happening on the borders and, presumably, will move inward from there.

wow, looks like all four corners are gonna see some development.

[eldondre]

... the abandoned gas station on the north side was approved for 18 units. ...

demolition began this morning

[phillycat]

Hadn't been through Francisville for a while, now that I'm bike riding again...wow. to see that much development even in the middle of a recession is amazing.

Those more familiar with the two neighborhoods may have more information, but it seems to me the main difference between Francisville and B-town (besides actual location), is that F-ville has so many more empty lots right in the center. It always creeped me out because it felt like a wasteland. I get the impression that B-town has more actual residents. That might make B-town feel like a better neighborhood in the short run, but in the longer run if Fville gets a lot of development and is able to attract new residents, the feel of the place may turn around a lot more quickly.

All of these areas, including Fairmount, really need some decent street level retail/service/restaurants if they are going to evolve, though.

[eldondre]

Hadn't been through Francisville for a while, now that I'm bike riding again...wow. to see that much development even in the middle of a recession is amazing.

Those more familiar with the two neighborhoods may have more information, but it seems to me the main difference between Francisville and B-town (besides actual location), is that F-ville has so many more empty lots right in the center. It always creeped me out because it felt like a wasteland. I get the impression that B-town has more actual residents. That might make B-town feel like a better neighborhood in the short run, but in the longer run if Fville gets a lot of development and is able to attract new residents, the feel of the place may turn around a lot more quickly.

All of these areas, including Fairmount, really need some decent street level retail/service/restaurants if they are going to evolve, though.

it's good in that we do need some housing stock renewal over time (most of it was actually demolished BEFORE NTI). What's been disappointing is that it continues to be small building. those 8 units could be in one large building with nice, open floor plans and patios but instead, they are cramming them in 6 buildings. we talked about condos before and one potentially nice thing about condos is the ability to have a totally different floor plan. anyway, the francisville master plan wants to concentrate on ridge for commercial (I think commercial should go where it can, would love to see some come back to corinthian) but they reasonably acknowledge that the neighborhood needs more residents first. still, if I were in the business of slinging alcohol, I'd be eyeing up prince's. sadly the large open lot at broad and ridge is church owned which means the gateway to ridge ave will remain vacant for quite some time in all likelihood.

adam-have you guys thought of a ridge ave coalition like the girard coalition?

[phillycat]

it's good in that we do need some housing stock renewal over time (most of it was actually demolished BEFORE NTI). What's been disappointing is that it continues to be small building. those 8 units could be in one large building with nice, open floor plans and patios but instead, they are cramming them in 6 buildings. we talked about condos before and one potentially nice thing about condos is the ability to have a totally different floor plan.

I am guessing (totally), but if they think their target market is going to be Temple students' parents getting them a condo to live in while they are in school and maybe grad students then probably the smaller condos are going to be a better sales proposition.

still, if I were in the business of slinging alcohol, I'd be eyeing up prince's.

and if the above is correct, then even more so, yes.

sadly the large open lot at broad and ridge is church owned which means the gateway to ridge ave will remain vacant for quite some time in all likelihood.

church-owned property is a major blight upon this city. blech.

[eldondre]

I am guessing (totally), but if they think their target market is going to be Temple students' parents getting them a condo to live in while they are in school and maybe grad students then probably the smaller condos are going to be a better sales proposition.
.

regardless of size of the actual condo, why six buildings instead of one building with 18 units? actually, most of the condos on fairmount ave haven't been targeted at students, most of the rentals have been.

prince's: it already doesn't fit in. would love to have a prince's grey lodge.

[peetah]

Living around the playground its funny seeing the "doughtnut" effect in a very condensed area - to the south border of the playground, closer to Fairmount you have 3 brand-new higher end townhouses being built (in my opinion they're pretty fugly, I'm curious if this was a speculator going in to try and beat Hankin to the punch?). To the north west border of the playground, closer to "Fairmount" you of course have the Hankin construction (looks like they dug up a bunch of brick there recently). But then to the north east border of the playground you have a bunch of PHA houses being rehabbed by PHA.