Don't Call me African-American

[jester]

I don't post much on here. This is one of the more interesting (and civil) threads I've seen on race in a long time.

Cro Burnham: I never much cared for the trope "it's a black thing - you wouldn't understand." I agree that people who have never experienced something can understand and do empathize with others who have.

But there are also people who go on to claim that their experiences with [x] are equal to those others' experiences with [x+y]. In way too many cases, they are not.

I generally reject the definition of racism as "prejudice plus power" often bandied about on the academic Left, but can't say there's nothing to it. Generally speaking, if a white person moves into a black neighborhood and experiences hostility or rude treatment from the residents, there is an option available to them that usually eliminates the problem completely: move to a non-black neighborhood. For most of us, not even moving to a black neighborhood eliminates the problem completely, for the disdain we experience sometimes seems to permeate the entire society.

@U.man and seand: Please be careful. I think the two of you probably ultimately agree on more than you think.

@MarketStEl: Agree wholeheartedly regarding that trope. I always hated seeing it on t-shirts and in visual media because I thought it always ended necessary conversations before they could begin. Even if there was a historical reason for its beginning, it tended to linger in unhelpful ways.

I consider myself academic Left, and perhaps as such, I've always seen "prejudice plus power" as a helpful definition for racism. The reason I say this is because bias/prejudice is at the root of racism, but the power/threat of consequences is what gives racism its bite. I do agree with you that if one wants to avoid the potential problem of poor treatment from the black residents of a neighborhood, they shouldn't move there. That said, it's a terrible excuse. We have to examine the endgame here. What is the ultimate positive thing that we're trying to accomplish? It's a real cop-out to say, "hey, white person: if you don't want to experience the possibility of racism, don't move to a black neighborhood," for the same reason it's a cop-out to reverse the races in this instance. (And the same goes for any other racial/ethnic groups we may want to throw in: Asian, Hispanic/Latino, Indian or Deshi, etc.)

The reason I see "prejudice plus power" as useful is the same reason I've always hated the term "reverse discrimination." I know why and how that term exists, especially because there are some white people out there that use/have used it as a rallying cry. The two main reasons I've hated that term are 1) it implies that black people can't be racist (which is part of said white people's rallying cry) and 2) it removes the agency/power dynamic of said prejudicial person. We shouldn't shy away from a prejudicial person if they are embracing tactics of bias, no matter the race of said person. Prejudicial frames of reference can be smaller than we want to acknowledge.

The term "reverse discrimination" should be abhorrent to everyone because it implies that there is a tacit normalcy that exists in discrimination of white people toward black people, and the same tacit normalcy of black people enduring it from white people (and, of course, this still leaves other groups out of the equation).

All of this said, I don't mean to imply that we live in a post-racial dreamland, a picture that some in the greater media have occasionally painted. Racial issues are messier than before, if for no other reason than the fact that we can actually discuss them civilly these days.

[MarketStEl]

I don't post much on here. This is one of the more interesting (and civil) threads I've seen on race in a long time.



@U.man and seand: Please be careful. I think the two of you probably ultimately agree on more than you think.

@MarketStEl: Agree wholeheartedly regarding that trope. I always hated seeing it on t-shirts and in visual media because I thought it always ended necessary conversations before they could begin. Even if there was a historical reason for its beginning, it tended to linger in unhelpful ways.

I consider myself academic Left, and perhaps as such, I've always seen "prejudice plus power" as a helpful definition for racism. The reason I say this is because bias/prejudice is at the root of racism, but the power/threat of consequences is what gives racism its bite. I do agree with you that if one wants to avoid the potential problem of poor treatment from the black residents of a neighborhood, they shouldn't move there. That said, it's a terrible excuse. We have to examine the endgame here. What is the ultimate positive thing that we're trying to accomplish? It's a real cop-out to say, "hey, white person: if you don't want to experience the possibility of racism, don't move to a black neighborhood," for the same reason it's a cop-out to reverse the races in this instance. (And the same goes for any other racial/ethnic groups we may want to throw in: Asian, Hispanic/Latino, Indian or Deshi, etc.)

The reason I see "prejudice plus power" as useful is the same reason I've always hated the term "reverse discrimination." I know why and how that term exists, especially because there are some white people out there that use/have used it as a rallying cry. The two main reasons I've hated that term are 1) it implies that black people can't be racist (which is part of said white people's rallying cry) and 2) it removes the agency/power dynamic of said prejudicial person. We shouldn't shy away from a prejudicial person if they are embracing tactics of bias, no matter the race of said person. Prejudicial frames of reference can be smaller than we want to acknowledge.

The term "reverse discrimination" should be abhorrent to everyone because it implies that there is a tacit normalcy that exists in discrimination of white people toward black people, and the same tacit normalcy of black people enduring it from white people (and, of course, this still leaves other groups out of the equation).

All of this said, I don't mean to imply that we live in a post-racial dreamland, a picture that some in the greater media have occasionally painted. Racial issues are messier than before, if for no other reason than the fact that we can actually discuss them civilly these days.

I think that if everyone on the academic Left used "prejudice plus power" in the nuanced way you do here, I'd have less problem with the term.

A poor white person from Appalachia may find that he is the powerless individual were he deposited in a social or cultural setting where middle- and upper-middle-class Northern African-Americans dominate, for instance.

Yet I've usually heard the phrase used with the connotation that power inheres in groups, that it is similarly fixed within those groups, and that all who belong to that group benefit from it in all places and at all times. It's that connotation I reject.

[jester]

Yet I've usually heard the phrase used with the connotation that power inheres in groups, that it is similarly fixed within those groups, and that all who belong to that group benefit from it in all places and at all times. It's that connotation I reject.

Gotcha. I agree.

[thoth]

Your comment about skin tone didn't seem snarky, I've just never heard the expression so white you're pink. I'm going to say this thread took a negative turn because you made a broad statement at first, then got upset when someone called you on it, then claimed you never made the remark at all.

The conversation took a mild turn, I think, because I made a regrettably snarky remark about skin tones. MarketSt, thanks for you eloquent contribution to this...spirited discussion.Cro, I never said, that white people have never experienced bigotry

I don't believe that Caucasian folks who fall somewhere in the range between "eggshell" and "so white you're pink" have a personal appreciation of what bigotry feels like. Some have an intellectual understanding of bigotry but none have ever actually experienced it. Bigotry has never been directed at them, ever.

Then you assumed I was white, assumed you knew where I've lived, and accused me of claiming that white people experiencing bigotry was on par with historically rooted societal racism experienced by black people in America.

I said the comparison between what was offered as an experience of bigotry was magnitudes smaller than what I've experienced. The notion of them being equivalent experiences was being defended vigorously which I found offensive.

Okay, I showed you where you contradicted yourself, now show me where I said this.

[U.man]

You got me, you sharpie. It was intellectually dishonest for me to waffle on this topic. My unvarnished feelings, my unqualified opinion is that no white people (I'm not including Jews because white supremacists think they're sub-human or Latinos; Americans that have to carry "papers' if they live in Arizona),NO white people have EVER been subjected to the kind virulent, mind numbing hate, the unbridled racism or the most crude, base bigotry that Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Native Americans, LBGTs (and others I've overlooked) have been subjected to. There is no legitimate comparison between what I've just described and whatever dim-witted, misguided, distasteful treatment YOU, OR ANY OTHER WHITE AMERICAN may have been subjected to. That said, I can only imagine a limited range of intellectual, emotional or interpersonal states you could be in. Perhaps, vapid simpleton? My guess is the you're a died-in-the wool racist who genuinely feels that white men are now discriminated against.

[6enny]

Reading the subject and nothing else...

I heard the term "halfrican American" for the first time today. Very cute.

[thoth]

You got me, you sharpie. It was intellectually dishonest for me to waffle on this topic. My unvarnished feelings, my unqualified opinion is that no white people (I'm not including Jews because white supremacists think they're sub-human or Latinos; Americans that have to carry "papers' if they live in Arizona),NO white people have EVER been subjected to the kind virulent, mind numbing hate, the unbridled racism or the most crude, base bigotry that Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Native Americans, LBGTs (and others I've overlooked) have been subjected to. There is no legitimate comparison between what I've just described and whatever dim-witted, misguided, distasteful treatment YOU, OR ANY OTHER WHITE AMERICAN may have been subjected to. That said, I can only imagine a limited range of intellectual, emotional or interpersonal states you could be in. Perhaps, vapid simpleton? My guess is the you're a died-in-the wool racist who genuinely feels that white men are now discriminated against.

Oh right, I'm a simpleton for expecting what you wrote to be an accurate reflection of what you meant. Sorry for not being clever enough to see the brilliant intellectual layers of your completely contradictory statements.

And, again, do you want to illustrate for me where I said that the racial prejudice experienced by white and black people was equivalent? Or do you just want to keep inflating your own sense of self righteousness by making up things you know about me? Keep digging yourself deeper...

[seand]

You got me, you sharpie. It was intellectually dishonest for me to waffle on this topic. My unvarnished feelings, my unqualified opinion is that no white people (I'm not including Jews because white supremacists think they're sub-human or Latinos; Americans that have to carry "papers' if they live in Arizona),NO white people have EVER been subjected to the kind virulent, mind numbing hate, the unbridled racism or the most crude, base bigotry that Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Native Americans, LBGTs (and others I've overlooked) have been subjected to. There is no legitimate comparison between what I've just described and whatever dim-witted, misguided, distasteful treatment YOU, OR ANY OTHER WHITE AMERICAN may have been subjected to. That said, I can only imagine a limited range of intellectual, emotional or interpersonal states you could be in. Perhaps, vapid simpleton? My guess is the you're a died-in-the wool racist who genuinely feels that white men are now discriminated against.

You do know that lots of LBGTs are white, lots of Latinos are white, lots of Native Americans (even with deep ties to the reservation) can appear white and that most Jews consider themselves white. Your Venn diagram is missing how much the circles overlap in complicated ways and how often people who are priviliged in one setting are on the recieving end of bias on the other.

I'm not Jewish, or at least probably not since some German ancestors who may or may not have been passing some 400 or 500 years back. But for whatever reason, I've been mistaken as Jewish at various times in my life, even to be yelled at for some time by some seriously confused drunken yahoo when having falafel in a small joint run by a Lebanese Muslim man. The whole interaction, the felafel place's owner face when first being put off by the anti-Semetic cursing aimed at him but then being concerned that I might be offended, was memorable for being more strange than hurtful.

I have a reddish hair that was quite bright as youngster and I remember being told "Redheads are ******s turned inside out" on more than one occasion, though to this day I still don't understand what that is supposed to even mean, except readheads are supposed to be bad or racially suspect in some way.

Racial stereotypes are funny things. I remember a white couple i know were drinking in a West Phhilly African American bar and had this story about a really drunken woman approaching them and asking them "Do ya'll have horses?" - like of course all white people, even those living in the city, have horses. People get all kinds of crazy ideas in their heads.

You are doing yourself no favors dividing the world into "those who oppress" and "those who are oppressed" as if people in Category B never oppress others. Thats not how the world works.

[thoth]

I have a reddish hair that was quite bright as youngster and I remember being told "Redheads are ******s turned inside out" on more than one occasion, though to this day I still don't understand what that is supposed to even mean, except readheads are supposed to be bad or racially suspect in some way.

I think a more common version of this replaces "redheads" with "irish"

[seand]

I think a more common version of this replaces "redheads" with "irish"

Because we are lazy and drink too much, more predisposed to be human beasts of burden then men of thought?

[thoth]

Because we are lazy and drink too much, more predisposed to be human beasts of burden then men of thought?

cause haters gonna hate

[seand]

Found this on a quick Google image search. I of course do have the prominent upper lip, myself.



Several of the images from the site are pretty interesting.
Foreigners View of Irish: Racism - anti-Irish cartoons

[Cro Burnham]

. . . . My unvarnished feelings, my unqualified opinion is that . . . . NO white people have EVER been subjected to the kind virulent, mind numbing hate, the unbridled racism or the most crude, base bigotry that Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Native Americans, LBGTs (and others I've overlooked) have been subjected to. There is no legitimate comparison between what I've just described and whatever dim-witted, misguided, distasteful treatment YOU, OR ANY OTHER WHITE AMERICAN may have been subjected to.

I think you are kind of far off on the self-righteous side. My guess is that you just started a political science course on post-colonialism or something, and have gotten carried away with the material, like many people I knew (inclduing my own sister) during college in the late 80s. early 90s It is so tedious to read, and you will never really get anyone worth reaching to pay very much attention by taking on such a tone of extreme moral condescension. It really is an ineffective means of communication. I understand communication (vs., say brow-beating) may not be your conscious objective. You will probably say you don't care how anyone else infers what you are saying. But I think deep down you do care, otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. If I were you, I'd try to be a bit more open to what many of the posters on this thread - many of whom are sympathetic to and would like to understand your experience - have been expressing. You may be "enraged" as you described before, but a wise person would not allow rage to transform into indiscriminate hostility and ugly, innaccurate generalizations.

I am of Jewish descent (though not practicing) and white. I appreciate your sympathy with regard to antisemitism. Personally, I have experienced modest bigotry in relation to being ethnically Jewish, but it is nothing like you describe that black people have experienced. If fact, it is even more minor than the mild anti-white (or anti-white Jew) discrimination I have suffered from black people in Philadelphia and NYC, which accounts the worst discrimination of any type I have experienced in this country (not too bad though).

[AnthonyB]

Some people are going to be offended by "black;" some are going to be offended by "African American." I started using "black" after I realized my best friend is Jamacian, my other friend is Jamacian-American, my boyfriend a mix of black ethnicity. Nobody I know seems to mind plus it's easier to say.

The fact of the matter is...NO ONE...is 100% pure, except Native Americans. As MLK said.....be not proud of your race, your ethnicity, be pround of what you have accomplished in your life, and adding my own.....be proud of your ethics, principles and morals. be proud of what you stand for, that is what changes the quality of society.

[RittenhouseGirl]

Isn't Theresa Heinz African-American? And Charlize Theron? Or are they European-African-American or some other made up nonsense? Blah.

It really gets ridiculous when you start calling people like me European-American. Plus it's too many syllables.

It's even more stupid that what people want to be called is always in flux and changes with the generations, like a trend. African-American, people of color, black, European-American, people of non-color, white, pasty ...

Chocolate, mocha, cinnamon, vanilla, white bread, burnt toast. I guess it comes back to food again. Yum.