Philadelphia Orchestra seeks bankruptcy reorganization

[Gladys]

I looked at the current season's offerings last year and haven't looked at the future ones on offer. I recall it being a PITA to go on the orchestra's web site and finding relevant information. The season ticket package options also weren't clearly explained. The whole thing felt like it was geared toward those who were also the in-crowd. I could have called someone and gotten more info but I guess I'm in that 20s-30s age group that isn't well represented in the orchestra's audiences so I can see why I felt excluded and didn't feel like spending the time and money just yet. Perhaps I will in the following years. YNS isn't supposed to take over full time until after next season, IIRC... somehow, I'm looking fwd to that and hoping that'll make things exciting.

I couldn't agree more about the website. Incomplete and difficult to find the exact info you want. I hope you send this comment to the marketing people at the orchestra. They go out of their way to interested college age people and even have college orchestra nights where the members come out into verizon's lobby afterwards.

Let's face it the last few years have been a cluster**** of management.

Feels like an old friend is dying. I hope leadership emerges to turn this ship around. Don't know if there is enough popular support to sustain a world class orchestra in Philadelphia. Too many empty seats and Kimmel Center exerience is disappointing, overall. Waited too long to appoint new conductor and new leadership. And while CC is safe it is really a major turn-off to be approached repeatedly by pan-handlers that hang out on S. Broad St. and N. Broad St and Market East. I hope the luster can be restored to the storied Philadelphia Orchestra despite this great setback.

There is enough to support it. I think a grammy would do or something - you are right it will get better next year. no matter who the music director was going to be just having one will put things into focus.

Incidentally - many, many, MANY, classical musicians in this town are Phillies Phans. Checking the score at intermission or while waiting is not unheard of.

[Braveheart]

alright guys please break it up. after concerts i get a ride with a friend or take a cab. walking west from there up towards rittenhouse "seems" ok but once i turn and go past south st its not good. neither would be around city hall or suburban station On that we can agree. if not i really don't care.

This thread is about a world class ensemble here in philly that could be on it's way out if people don't support it. If it were to fade away with it would go ancillary businesses and jobs, that area would revert into a wasteland again. no one wants that so... focus people. please?

Thanks for pointing out the 30th St/ cab idea at least when it's later.

[Bob_Head]

Your estimation of this years programing bein same old same old is misleading at best. If you don't want to go, don't complain when they aren't around to perform what you DO want to hear.

Actually, most of the pieces you mention, I have heard, albiet recorded versions. Wether the TSO, Atlanta, Dallas or the Radio France Orchestra, they're out there and have been for quite a while. That we have to rely on Indianapolis to commision a work by Higdon, illustrates the problem quite nicely.

As for the whole, "don't complain" mentality, that, too, illustrates the problem quite nicely. I go to the orchestra for my musical enjoyment, not to soley support them. Just as with movies and resturants and asian hookers, if I'm not getting what I want out of the experience, what's the point? I have other choices, and use them. Do you go to a chinese resturant in hope that one day they'll suddenly serve french cusine? Or do you go to the place that gives you what you want right now.

I'ts like voting. If you don't vote you have no right to complain.

No, it's not. Voting is having a voice in something I am a part of, and have ownership of. This is buying stuff. I'm not complaining about the PO, I'm explaining why I choose to not give them my money. They have a right to listen to the consumer's reasoning in that decision, or not to. Sixteen years ago, when I moved to Philadelphia, the Orchestra was in deep financial $hit. They still are. That suggests Orchestra management is tone deaf to the desires of their audience.

[phillyaggie]

the way I see it, symphonies do have to play to (at least) two different audiences: those who want to enjoy the classics and the crowd pleasers when they go to the orchestra hall, and those who are tired of the same old-same old and want the avant garde. Those who can please these two constituencies without losing their balance hopefully can do well enough to continue...others start to wither.

What I don't understand, and this is most definitely on the management team (and the board), is how come the Phil is NOT well represented in various media outlets; you can hear weekly concerts on public radio (NPR, PRI, etc.) from the likes of Chicago, Celeveland, Pittsburgh, Boston, San Francisco, and New York. The Phil Orch being a traditional "Big Five" ought to be able to get some top billing and generate revenue or at least enough buzz which leads to future revenue streams.

That the management can't sell the orchestra even with tremendous name recognition, tells you the incompetence involved. Are these crony capitalists? Are they suburban moguls with complete disdain for a city-based arts organization they claim to love and lead? I don't know. With Vulagmore may be we can get some outside-the-box (or outside-the-town) thinking...

[Gladys]

Actually, most of the pieces you mention, I have heard, albiet recorded versions. Wether the TSO, Atlanta, Dallas or the Radio France Orchestra, they're out there and have been for quite a while. That we have to rely on Indianapolis to commision a work by Higdon, illustrates the problem quite nicely.

As for the whole, "don't complain" mentality, that, too, illustrates the problem quite nicely. I go to the orchestra for my musical enjoyment, not to soley support them. Just as with movies and resturants and asian hookers, if I'm not getting what I want out of the experience, what's the point? I have other choices, and use them. Do you go to a chinese resturant in hope that one day they'll suddenly serve french cusine? Or do you go to the place that gives you what you want right now.



No, it's not. Voting is having a voice in something I am a part of, and have ownership of. This is buying stuff. I'm not complaining about the PO, I'm explaining why I choose to not give them my money. They have a right to listen to the consumer's reasoning in that decision, or not to. Sixteen years ago, when I moved to Philadelphia, the Orchestra was in deep financial $hit. They still are. That suggests Orchestra management is tone deaf to the desires of their audience.

in recent years there were lots of new works, i participated in some. just not this year due to lack of money. so why are you even talking on this thread, they have listened and it didn't work remember the economy tanking? things were just on an even keel then that happened. I give up there is no pleasing you.

[Gladys]

the way I see it, symphonies do have to play to (at least) two different audiences: those who want to enjoy the classics and the crowd pleasers when they go to the orchestra hall, and those who are tired of the same old-same old and want the avant garde. Those who can please these two constituencies without losing their balance hopefully can do well enough to continue...others start to wither.

What I don't understand, and this is most definitely on the management team (and the board), is how come the Phil is NOT well represented in various media outlets; you can hear weekly concerts on public radio (NPR, PRI, etc.) from the likes of Chicago, Celeveland, Pittsburgh, Boston, San Francisco, and New York. The Phil Orch being a traditional "Big Five" ought to be able to get some top billing and generate revenue or at least enough buzz which leads to future revenue streams.

That the management can't sell the orchestra even with tremendous name recognition, tells you the incompetence involved. Are these crony capitalists? Are they suburban moguls with complete disdain for a city-based arts organization they claim to love and lead? I don't know. With Vulagmore may be we can get some outside-the-box (or outside-the-town) thinking...

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!! It takes money to do those things, pay the players for the broadcasts but the biggest problem is that not many stations are doing broadcasts like that anymore. they just don't exist. All those things were underway the year the economy tanked. there were cameras onstage for rehearsals and performances, simulcasts.. the whole bit. then the housing thing and it all went the way of the do do

[Gladys]

Look - i'm not saying the last 20 yrs haven't been a management cluster****. THEY HAVE.

What i am saying is that it's a world class orchestra, our world class orchestra, and it's worth saving. If each of us as individuals choose to support it the likelihood of that happening increases.

You don't want to support it , fine, just don't complain if it goes the way of the dodo.

[Braveheart]

Look - i'm not saying the last 20 yrs haven't been a management cluster****. THEY HAVE.

I seem to recall over the years that the musicians always had to have more money and struck me as spoiled and
pampered to be honest.
So a flute player warrants about 130K a year? Sounds high to me.
The orchestra brings in $31 million but costs $45 million per year to operate. You put it on management the last
20 years and I don't agree, sorry.

From Playbill Arts-

The minimum annual salary for a Philadelphia Orchestra musician under the new agreement is now $119,600, a 4.6% increase, with a 4.4% raise to $124,800 in 2008-09 and a phased increase through the 2009-10 season that averages to 4.8%, for an annual salary level of $131,040 by the end of the contract term. The full complement of the orchestra is now 105 musicians and two librarians, up one from last year but still down two from the 2001-04 contract.

In addition, Philadelphia Orchestra management has agreed to improvements in disability insurance benefits and instrument insurance. Health insurance coverage and pension contribution levels remain unchanged from the previous contract.

In exchange for these improvements, the Philadelphia musicians have agreed to more flexibility in scheduling and electronic rights.

[Bob_Head]

in recent years there were lots of new works, i participated in some. just not this year due to lack of money. so why are you even talking on this thread, they have listened and it didn't work remember the economy tanking? things were just on an even keel then that happened. I give up there is no pleasing you.

I suppose I'm even talking on this thread because I'm part of the problem. The Orchestra used to get more of my moeny than they do now. That's the problem. That's something to worry about the day after declaring bankruptcy.

The first thing I said in this thread was, "The Orchestra needs to figure out if its rich tradition is more burden than gift." That slavish devotion to the lush "Philadelphia Sound"--romantic to its core--is part of what is holding it back. Eugene Ormandy has been dead for 25 years--it's really time to move from under his shadow.

[Gladys]

I seem to recall over the years that the musicians always had to have more money and struck me as spoiled and
pampered to be honest.
So a flute player warrants about 130K a year? Sounds high to me.
The orchestra brings in $31 million but costs $45 million per year to operate. You put it on management the last
20 years and I don't agree, sorry.

From Playbill Arts-

The minimum annual salary for a Philadelphia Orchestra musician under the new agreement is now $119,600, a 4.6% increase, with a 4.4% raise to $124,800 in 2008-09 and a phased increase through the 2009-10 season that averages to 4.8%, for an annual salary level of $131,040 by the end of the contract term. The full complement of the orchestra is now 105 musicians and two librarians, up one from last year but still down two from the 2001-04 contract.

In addition, Philadelphia Orchestra management has agreed to improvements in disability insurance benefits and instrument insurance. Health insurance coverage and pension contribution levels remain unchanged from the previous contract.

In exchange for these improvements, the Philadelphia musicians have agreed to more flexibility in scheduling and electronic rights.

Do you have any idea what it costs to become a musician of that calibre, purchase one of the finest instruments in the world, or two. Upkeep of said instrument. The amount of time practicing, years in school, taking lessons etc. $150,000 seems low to me. they play year round, practice during the day play concerts at night. Any idea how physically difficult that is? Their pay is more than amply deserved.

How much are the Phillies players paid again? World class musicians are no less valuable.

You sound like people who say teachers earning 40,000 are ruining the country.

The players income, for the amount of work they do which is consistently at the highest level of anyone else in the world, is a pittance.

[Braveheart]

I was only speaking of my perception over the years as reported by our 'beloved' media.

I'll paste below an example of how musicians make far more than $130K a year. My perception of the orchestra is of a
closed society that dines at only the best restaurants and lives in the most exclusive environs, which well they should
given their compensation. Further they are paid overtime and demand residuals from any recordings and tend to live large
in general, thanks to a 4.5% wage increase in each of the last three years despite a crippling recession.

I know of no teachers that only make $40K except maybe for substitutes or part-timers.The clientele that frequents
the orchesta will be able to make up any valid shortfall I hope.

~Philly.com 3-19-11~

A recent snapshot of labor negotiations reported that one recent proposal would cut salaries 20 percent - from the base minimum of a scheduled March 21 raise to $131,000 down to $104,000. The article further stated that the base salary figure was deceptive, since so many musicians over the years have been paid additional income by the orchestra - for example, for media activity and a "string bonus." Additionally, titled players earn more (concertmaster, associates, principals and co-principals).

So here from the orchestra's last tax return (year ending August 2009) are some examples of those higher salaries (these figures include deferred compensation, additional non-taxable income and other income):

David Kim, concertmaster: $402,561

David Bilger, principal trumpeter: $296,204

Jeffery Khaner, principal flutist: $278,238

Riccardo Morales, principal clarinetist: $268,465

Richard Woodhams, principal oboist: $278,577

Jennifer Montone, principal hornist: $256,440

Now, the above are titled players, whose presence here, to various degrees at various times, has been secured against the threat - real or implied - that they would get hired away by another orchestra.

So what about section players - what do they earn? The tax return includes the salaries of three cellists without titles: $152,414, $158,089 and $166,008.

Of course, critics of these salaries will twig onto the figures as proof that unions are evil, that orchestra members are overpaid in relation to what everyone in Philadelphia is making, etc.

But let me argue that really only two factors are relevant here: does Philadelphia want the best possible players so it can have the best orchestra? And if so, is the orchestra board willing to do whatever needs to be done to secure such a future?
Posted by Peter Dobrin @ 12:42 PM Permalink

[Gladys]

"My perception of the orchestra is of a
closed society that dines at only the best restaurants " LOL that couldn't be farther from the truth. when in NYC a lot of the go to this cheepo chain a few blocks from carnegie to grab dinner. The perception of what classical music is and what it actually is are two different things. just listen to the music and i you like it it's good. if you don't it's not good for you. simple.

By and large most musicians I know are down to earth and just as comfortable with a martini as a beer. Most wear jeans as a uniform. LOL

As to how much they all earn, i'm glad to see those numbers, they earn every oenny. Don't know salaries just took the number from what you said.

[supersupper]

I often see a disconnect between those who watch and those who do. With MAYBE the exception of a few hollywood types, and specific people, artists are almost indentured servants to the wealthy and to a lesser extent the general public. They bark for their dinner. Outsiders think that because artists are wined and dined by their benefactors, they are of the same ilk. I'm not sure that is true.

With that said, it seems to me that those who are strictly musicians are mostly craftsmen, rather than artists.


Charlie Sheen is an excellent example of a craftsman who is currently trying to prove himself an artist (wether drug addiction is involved or not is pretty much irrelevant).

[Gladys]

Philadelphia Orchestra's bankruptcy filing creates a global shock | Philadelphia Inquirer | 04/19/2011

This is a BiG ****ING DEAL.

[Braveheart]

"My perception of the orchestra is of a
closed society that dines at only the best restaurants " LOL that couldn't be farther from the truth. when in NYC a lot of the go to this cheepo chain a few blocks from carnegie to grab dinner.

By and large most musicians I know are down to earth and just as comfortable with a martini as a beer. Most wear jeans as a uniform. LOL

That's great to hear and not something you'd learn from the media without some archival digging.

It has to be a very demanding job and there's no question most deserve every dollar. I admit we're not classical
music listeners and will have to give it a try along with getting down to the Hall or the Mann.

[The Count]

The Philadelphia Orchestra bankruptcy is primarily the result of two things:

1) Aging (Dying?) Demographics
2) Verizon Hall

Go to any performance and look at the age of the people in attendance. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that "the next generation" is just not turned on to classical music.

As a final kick in the teeth, the acoustics of Verizon Hall are awful. Just awful.

I have no problem with the "space" itself that the Kimmel Center offers, I actually find it pretty cool from an aesthetics standpoint and I appreciate how open the lobby is. But when I sit down to listen to a world class orchestra I expect to have my hair blown back at points and Verizon can't deliver that. They botched the acoustics and until they fix it the orchestra can only sound so good.

Sticking a video cube out front isn't going to change anything.

[Bob_Head]

Philadelphia Orchestra's bankruptcy filing creates a global shock | Philadelphia Inquirer | 04/19/2011

This is a BiG ****ING DEAL.

And, this has been in the works for a long time. A few years back, when Gramophone listed the top 20 orchestras of the world, and Philadelphia wasn't on the list, rather than react with indignation, maybe they should have taken it as moment for introspection and reflection. Instead, the Orchestra and most of its fans wrote it off as some sort of injustice, while a lot of classical music fans around the world readily conceded that Philadelphia ain't what it used to be. And, in the days since the announcement, I've talked to a lot of my younger friends who used to regularly attend, and the consensus is that they don't go nearly as much. Likewise, their reasoning is all pretty much the same. And while you might, at the idea of yet another rendition of Strauss's Zarathustra think, "anyone that doesn't want to hear this played by philly orch has to have their head examined," they think that at $50 for a bad seat, they'll take a pass.

I won't dispute, the Orchestra has some wonderful musicians, more than capable of moments of greatness. Unfortunately, that's not what's being asked of them. The BSO has had 40 world premieres in the six seasons since 2004. How many has Philly had? We have a complacent board and management, more than happy to live off of reputation and past glory. Most of the younger audience isn't happy with that.

[BarryG]

And, this has been in the works for a long time. A few years back, when Gramophone listed the top 20 orchestras of the world, and Philadelphia wasn't on the list, rather than react with indignation, maybe they should have taken it as moment for introspection and reflection. Instead, the Orchestra and most of its fans wrote it off as some sort of injustice, while a lot of classical music fans around the world readily conceded that Philadelphia ain't what it used to be. And, in the days since the announcement, I've talked to a lot of my younger friends who used to regularly attend, and the consensus is that they don't go nearly as much. Likewise, their reasoning is all pretty much the same. And while you might, at the idea of yet another rendition of Strauss's Zarathustra think, "anyone that doesn't want to hear this played by philly orch has to have their head examined," they think that at $50 for a bad seat, they'll take a pass.

I won't dispute, the Orchestra has some wonderful musicians, more than capable of moments of greatness. Unfortunately, that's not what's being asked of them. The BSO has had 40 world premieres in the six seasons since 2004. How many has Philly had? We have a complacent board and management, more than happy to live off of reputation and past glory. Most of the younger audience isn't happy with that.

This is what Yannick is supposed to do. If they can ride this out, he is their best and only hope. BTW there are many seats for less than $50.

[Gladys]

That's great to hear and not something you'd learn from the media without some archival digging.

It has to be a very demanding job and there's no question most deserve every dollar. I admit we're not classical
music listeners and will have to give it a try along with getting down to the Hall or the Mann.

You have to go with no preconceived notions. It's like going to a phillies game without knowing anything about baseball. (FYI lots of musicians are season ticket holders with the phils.) Don't let the regulars or snobs put you off. Actually i like to listen with my eyes closed it's easier to hear with out distraction. Some music you won't like, some you will. If the performance is good chances are you will like it. I used to HATE Mozart till i heard it performed by a world class group, then i was like, wow that's what all the fuss is about. If the performance is bad - run for the hills. It's like coffee, wine or micro brews. when they are good they are heavenly and when they are not bleech. i'm happy to give you the down to earth tour of the classical world. Bach has a beat just like jazz... it's not that far apart. PM me and sometime i'll get a group of newbies to take the "tour". I know lots of musicians that would think it would be a hoot to break down preconceived notions.

[Gladys]

This is what Yannick is supposed to do. If they can ride this out, he is their best and only hope. BTW there are many seats for less than $50.

Hey Yannick is not Obi Wan. It wouldn't matter who the new music director was. I was pulling for Jurowski myself. But maybe they got Yannick for less because he's younger i don't know.

Whoever it is what they needed was clear leadership and someone to make decisions. Not just artistically but administratively, which has been the true issue.

Bob, the BSO has been an entirely different ball game. this orchestra has and will commission new works it's just about the money and when that's back in order it will happen. The PO was not on great footing before the economy tanked and now they are worse. Seems like the arts lag 3 yrs behind in the funding stuff. When the whole thing hit gigs were set for the year and it was a huge well attended one. then the donations and ticket sales went down with the economy and things went further down from there. Supposedly the economy is on an upswing now but we won't feel it in the arts for another 3 yrs. It will be interesting to see who's left standing. Many Many Many companies have folded. Opera, Chorus, Orchestra. It was not a good financial time before the economy tanked and that killed so many. Colleagues lost entire years worth of contracts due to companies folding.

So am i saying that by getting a ticket and sitting in a seat you are voting to support PO's existence? You bet your sweet ass i am. Funders take into account concert attendance as well as how many tickets are sold. If you don't care, don't go, but don't bitch when they are gone because you didn't feel like helping the cause.

Of course you can get any concert from anywhere on your computer, hear and listen to it. But no matter how good the recording (even the met simulcasts) there is absolutely no substitute for a live concert. Whether vocal or instrumental, it's an experience and you hear it with your entire being, not just your ears. Is it perfect like a CD that's been fixed where every human flaw could occur? NO and that's part of the beauty. Don't be afraid to enjoy the concert, you aren't supposed to sit there like you're in a straight jacket. Just be respectful of your fellow audience members, and if you want to have a cocktail before you go do so and enjoy.

So yes Bob go where you like and God bless. To the rest of you, why not go find out what it is you will be loosing before you blow it off. There is a $10 rush ticket sale.

Lastly, I can tell you that on matinee days the age is in the blue hair range, but in the evenings there are lots of younger people. Even some, dare i say it, hipsters.

If every philadelphian gave $5 to the orchestra, or any arts organization for that matter, it would help. Funders also take into account how many people make donations, not just how much those donations were.

yes this is a long, but not "ranty" post i hope it's been informational. for me it's been a long day. bye!

P.S. I'm serious about wanting to break down the barriers of classical music for people, if anyone is interested in going to some concerts i'd be happy to put together a group and show you how user friendly it can be. It can be the Gladys' tour of the arts. so PM me if you are interested and we'll see what we can do. mind you this is a group, not a date so don't think i'm going out with one dork head who's a heavy breather. I always wanted my own radio show that specialized in breaking down the barriers and once and a while i'd have a drinking game. say i'd play the verdi requiem and every time you hear dies irae take a drink... now that's a party.

YouTube - Verdi Dies Irae Solti

But even if you did listen to the radio and take part in a drinking game, with suroundsound and the highest technology out there. NOTHING and i mean NOTHING compares with an excellent performance of excellent classical music live. "Dude" you can feel it go right through you. Seriously, it's better than sex. Yes i went there, because it's the truth.