Navy Yard 2 Center City "I drink your milkshake"

**Eastcoast** · 02-06-2013, 05:49 PM

Somebody better build a rail line from CC to the Navy Yard pronto!

Updated Navy Yard Master Plan is Revealed | NakedPhilly

"Last week, PIDC, the citywide economic development agency and master developer of The Navy Yard, and Mayor Nutter celebrated a big milestone for the region: 10,000 employees at The Navy Yard."

"The most obvious changes are the revised districts within The Navy Yard. Gone is the Marina District, which called for a 250-slip marina, and gone is the East End, which at one time was considered for an 18-hole championship golf course. These districts proposed a huge inventory of residential housing – nearly 5,000 total units comprised of mid-rise apartment buildings, duplexes, and townhouses."

**kidphilly** · 02-06-2013, 05:50 PM

Cherry Hill hopes Subaru HQ stays

well oddly I literally just posted this in another thread. But tome this would be the type thing that is a win versus relacating GSK etc.

**Eastcoast** · 02-06-2013, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Cherry Hill hopes Subaru HQ stays

well oddly I literally just posted this in another thread. But tome this would be the type thing that is a win versus relacating GSK etc.

Funny, I just noticed that...and you are correct sir!

Subaru would be a nice addition in the Navy Yard but man would it spank Cherry Hill.

**Giavella Water** · 02-06-2013, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Eastcoast

Somebody better build a rail line from CC to the Navy Yard pronto!

Updated Navy Yard Master Plan is Revealed | NakedPhilly

"Last week, PIDC, the citywide economic development agency and master developer of The Navy Yard, and Mayor Nutter celebrated a big milestone for the region: 10,000 employees at The Navy Yard."

"The most obvious changes are the revised districts within The Navy Yard. Gone is the Marina District, which called for a 250-slip marina, and gone is the East End, which at one time was considered for an 18-hole championship golf course. These districts proposed a huge inventory of residential housing – nearly 5,000 total units comprised of mid-rise apartment buildings, duplexes, and townhouses."

Sure, 5,000people here, 10,000 there. Nutter talks out of his hat. He can't govern what he has now, much less expanding the population into the Naval Base.

It means more cops, more Sanitation, more gas, etc. etc.

Maybe if Donald Trump was mayor, NOT a Nutter.

**Jayfar** · 02-06-2013, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Giavella Water

Sure, 5,000people here, 10,000 there. Nutter talks out of his hat. He can't govern what he has now, much less expanding the population into the Naval Base.

It means more cops, more Sanitation, more gas, etc. etc.

Maybe if Donald Trump was mayor, NOT a Nutter.

More taxpayers. Glass half empty always for you?

**Giavella Water** · 02-06-2013, 06:36 PM

Yeah, with their tax money going down a sink hole.

**bootsywannabe** · 02-06-2013, 06:57 PM

At least 1/3 of all businesses at the Navy Yard currently receive favorable tax treatment from the City of Philly, not to mention the one's still at the Navy Yard that used to receive tax breaks, as well as not counting breaks on rent, etc., that businesses have received for locating in the Navy Yard.

Why can't all of us have the same tax breaks? If it's good for the Navy Yard, wouldn't it be good for the rest of PHilly too?

**eldondre** · 02-06-2013, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Giavella Water

Yeah, with their tax money going down a sink hole.

welcome to America

**the mule** · 02-06-2013, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by bootsywannabe

At least 1/3 of all businesses at the Navy Yard currently receive favorable tax treatment from the City of Philly, not to mention the one's still at the Navy Yard that used to receive tax breaks, as well as not counting breaks on rent, etc., that businesses have received for locating in the Navy Yard.

Why can't all of us have the same tax breaks? If it's good for the Navy Yard, wouldn't it be good for the rest of PHilly too?

Hey, if it meant more businesses moving to the rest of the city, I'd ask for more tax breaks for them too. The best thing that could possibly come out of the success of the Navy Yard would be a total overhaul of the limited ways the City attempts to attract new businesses and the jobs and residents that come with them. Meanwhile Council passes the RCO bill that will be incredibly damaging to anyone attempting to build new offices or apartments anywhere in the city.

**Tartan69** · 02-07-2013, 04:05 PM

I understand this is certainly not a zero-sum game, but I agree this will hurt Center City. IMO the whole Navy Yard concept is a TERRIBLE idea from a density standpoint unless they drastically improve public transit, and I don't just mean extending the BSL. Between this and the sports complex, traffic will be a nightmare. Apparently they want 95 to look like 202 and the Schuylkill. No thanks.

**raider.adam** · 02-07-2013, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tartan69

I understand this is certainly not a zero-sum game, but I agree this will hurt Center City. IMO the whole Navy Yard concept is a TERRIBLE idea from a density standpoint unless they drastically improve public transit, and I don't just mean extending the BSL. Between this and the sports complex, traffic will be a nightmare. Apparently they want 95 to look like 202 and the Schuylkill. No thanks.

I thought the Navy Yard was a good concept if they catered/zoned it to businesses that are good for segmentation. A noisey tasteykake factory with lots of trucks? Sure! A corporate HQ? Not so much.

I always thought it should have been geared towards manufacturing type of businesses. The NAvy YArd also has its own power grid, I believe, which means you could try some interesting things in powering energy demanding facilities.

Ultimately it just seems they turned the Navy Yard into Philly's own suburban office park.

**billy ross** · 02-07-2013, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

I thought the Navy Yard was a good concept if they catered/zoned it to businesses that are good for segmentation. A noisey tasteykake factory with lots of trucks? Sure! A corporate HQ? Not so much.

I always thought it should have been geared towards manufacturing type of businesses. The NAvy YArd also has its own power grid, I believe, which means you could try some interesting things in powering energy demanding facilities.

Ultimately it just seems they turned the Navy Yard into Philly's own suburban office park.

It's the fastest growing office market in the region. How could you be against it? It represents success. It's a world-class example of how to redevelop a brownfield site. If only the rest of the city could follow its example. I'm pretty sure it's passed the Cherry Hill office market in size, and also the Bala Cynwyd market, but I'm not sure. Either way, Cherry Hill and Bala Cynwyd are tired office markets, and the Navy Yard is super-hot and growing like a weed.

Obviously the tax benefits at the Navy Yard need to be either extended to other parts of Philadelphia or phased out entirely over time (or a combination of both). I'm pretty sure that there are sunset dates on the Navy Yard's tax-favored status. I know that some of the Navy Yard's tax advantages have been extended citywide. Until either or both of the two scenarios occurs in full, I'll take the growth and the economic vitality at the Navy Yard, and draw lessons that can hopefully be extended to other, less economically dynamic, parts of the city.

**raider.adam** · 02-07-2013, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by billy ross

It's the fastest growing office market in the region. How could you be against it? It represents success. It's a world-class example of how to redevelop a brownfield site. If only the rest of the city could follow its example. I'm pretty sure it's passed the Cherry Hill office market in size, and also the Bala Cynwyd market, but I'm not sure. Either way, Cherry Hill and Bala Cynwyd are tired office markets, and the Navy Yard is super-hot and growing like a weed.

Obviously the tax benefits at the Navy Yard need to be either extended to other parts of Philadelphia or phased out entirely over time (or a combination of both). I'm pretty sure that there are sunset dates on the Navy Yard's tax-favored status. I know that some of the Navy Yard's tax advantages have been extended citywide. Until either or both of the two scenarios occurs in full, I'll take the growth and the economic vitality at the Navy Yard, and draw lessons that can hopefully be extended to other, less economically dynamic, parts of the city.

Why is it quickly growing? Because it is the Navy Yard or because of the big honking KOZ laid on top of it?

And what would have been wrong with the "fastest growing manufacturing center in the region"?

My point is, the NAvy YArd has a uniqueness in its geography. They should have taken more advantage of that.

**John Goodman** · 02-07-2013, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Ultimately it just seems they turned the Navy Yard into Philly's own suburban office park.

not the worst thing in the world

**raider.adam** · 02-07-2013, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by John Goodman

not the worst thing in the world

No, it isn't, but how often do you get a blank canvas?

Plus, how many of the square footage is taken up by businesses that were already in the city and relocated to escape taxes?

**BarryG** · 02-07-2013, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

No, it isn't, but how often do you get a blank canvas?

Plus, how many of the square footage is taken up by businesses that were already in the city and relocated to escape taxes?

Nutter said 70% of the businesses were new to the city. However I think if you looked at employee count and square footage, that number would be very different. But the reality is that many companies desire an office park environment and this gives them that within city limits.

And there are several companies and research facilities doing current edge energy research. Not sure if the power grid is part of the reason.

**raider.adam** · 02-07-2013, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

Nutter said 70% of the businesses were new to the city. However I think if you looked at employee count and square footage, that number would be very different. But the reality is that many companies desire an office park environment and this gives them that within city limits.

Yeah percent of businesses isn't a relevant number. Square footage, employees, yearly revenue, would be more important.

And there are several companies and research facilities doing current edge energy research. Not sure if the power grid is part of the reason.

I do recall that the separate grid was mentioned to try to get energy research down there.

**BarryG** · 02-07-2013, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Yeah percent of businesses isn't a relevant number. Square footage, employees, yearly revenue, would be more important.

I agree it's important but getting new businesses to start in the city is also very important. It may even be more important.

**raider.adam** · 02-07-2013, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by BarryG

I agree it's important but getting new businesses to start in the city is also very important. It may even be more important.

Well, a couple points.

1) I would be surprised if 70% of the businesses in the Navy Yard were new businesses. I would more expect that number would be businesses that just weren't previously in the City.
2) Size still matters. Businesses with 5 new employees, but you lost $1 million in taxes from previous tax payers relocating isn't necessarily a winning approach.
3) The better way to deal with taxes and startup companies is to likely forgive taxes for the first couple years of all new businesses and not just those that grabbed an address in a KOZ.

**Hospitalitygirl** · 02-07-2013, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by billy ross

It's the fastest growing office market in the region. How could you be against it? It represents success. It's a world-class example of how to redevelop a brownfield site. If only the rest of the city could follow its example. I'm pretty sure it's passed the Cherry Hill office market in size, and also the Bala Cynwyd market, but I'm not sure. Either way, Cherry Hill and Bala Cynwyd are tired office markets, and the Navy Yard is super-hot and growing like a weed.

Obviously the tax benefits at the Navy Yard need to be either extended to other parts of Philadelphia or phased out entirely over time (or a combination of both). I'm pretty sure that there are sunset dates on the Navy Yard's tax-favored status. I know that some of the Navy Yard's tax advantages have been extended citywide. Until either or both of the two scenarios occurs in full, I'll take the growth and the economic vitality at the Navy Yard, and draw lessons that can hopefully be extended to other, less economically dynamic, parts of the city.

And yet again (and I know I clearly speak for many...)