What was Center City like when it was a rough neighborhood?

[radiocolin]

I always thought of gay or tranny hookers as a sign that a neighborhood was safe, and maybe even a little fabulous. Am I missing something?

The gayborhood, while mostly safe, is certainly shady at night, down toward Spruce and from 12-13 and west.

[harryk]

My next book, which will be about Northern Liberties (Northern Liberties, Philadelphia: A Brief History), explores Philadelphia's Skid Row--and its removal--as much of it was in the part of NoLibs that got eliminated with the Callowhill East Redevelopment project of the 1960s. Plus, my book about the Delaware River waterfront, Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront, touches on Skid Row (see Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront | Facebook)...

[Scoats]

My next book, which will be about Northern Liberties (Northern Liberties, Philadelphia: A Brief History), explores Philadelphia's Skid Row--and its removal--as much of it was in the part of NoLibs that got eliminated with the Callowhill East Redevelopment project of the 1960s. Plus, my book about the Delaware River waterfront, Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront, touches on Skid Row (see Philadelphia's Lost Waterfront | Facebook)...

I just read David Goodis's Street of No Return. There's a neighborhood called the Hellhole not far from Skid Row. Was that a name for Callowhill East?

[DCnPhilly]

The gayborhood, while mostly safe, is certainly shady at night, down toward Spruce and from 12-13 and west.

The Gayborhood attracts a lot of kids who can't get into the bars so they just hang out at OK Pizza. Crowds of kids hanging out on the Street never looks good. DuPont Circle in DC used to have a number of late night coffee shops where we'd hang out before we were 21. There's no excuse for the hookers and drug dealers. I would think that the cops could easily get rid of that, especially in Center City.

[clonechemist]

The Gayborhood attracts a lot of kids who can't get into the bars so they just hang out at OK Pizza. Crowds of kids hanging out on the Street never looks good. DuPont Circle in DC used to have a number of late night coffee shops where we'd hang out before we were 21. There's no excuse for the hookers and drug dealers. I would think that the cops could easily get rid of that, especially in Center City.

One would hope, but unfortunately that seems untrue. The miniature streets in the area that look so quaint are a perfect hideout for a quick illegal transaction, be it sexual or drug-related. Plus you have the ridiculous self-contained slum that is the Parker-Spruce Hotel there on Spruce/13th, a general laissez-faire attitude among the large art student population, and a high local demand for club drugs to fuel the 'fabulous' nightlife.

With all that said it is still a fantastic neighborhood and about as safe as you can get in Philly; the drug dealers and prostitutes I've encountered there definitely publicized their respective wares, but they were never aggressive.

[MarketStEl]

I realize that I'm chiming in late, but I may as well throw my observations in.

I was 25, on the verge of 26, when I moved here in September 1984. I do recall hearing about prostitution being a problem in two places: the 1200 block of Locust and environs, and an area roughly bounded by 15th, Spruce, 16th and Locust streets. On the block bounded by 12th, Spruce, 13th and Locust, there were signs banning right turns from 11 pm to 6 am on each of the four corners, and I think the rules banning parking from midnight to 5 am on the 200 block of South 13th are also a holdover from that era.

But I never thought Center City rough. The Chestnut Street Transitway was forlorn after 5, and this was when Brooks Brothers was still at 15th and Chestnut. (Staples occupies its old location.) At night, you'd have street photographers setting up backdrops on the wide sidewalks and taking pictures for paying customers. And Hgirl points out accurately that no Center City retailer stayed open past 6, except the two department stores, which stayed open until *7* on Wednesdays. Rendell cajoling the retailers to "Make It a Night" on Wednesdays was the beginning of the retail revival that has even taken hold of Chestnut since the Transitway was removed.

Exactly right. I grew up in Northern Liberties before any of us bothered to call it Northern Liberties, was just north of Center City. We would be hangin at 3rd and Brown when one of the guys would say hey lets go down town, and we would walk there, or to China Town, this was in the sixties, never ever had any problems with any one. I remember as a 12 yr old walking alone, along Front st. or on Delaware Ave or New Market st. to go to Town, never a problem.

You could walk on Newmarket Street into the city? You must've lived there before I-95 was pushed through.

And btw, you may not have called it Northern Liberties, but that's been the area's name since the early 1700s, when Northern Liberties District (a class of municipality in 18th- and 19th-century Pennsylvania, now extinct) was created out of the "Liberty Lands" William Penn reserved as "country space" for buyers of plots in his new city. I remember when Liberties Restaurant opened on 2nd Street in the mid-1980s and the owners were touting NoLibs as Center City's "next big neighborhood". I think it held on to that status for almost 20 years before finally fulfilling it.

Jesus don't have a ****ing hissy fit about it. I've read about how Center City used to be rough so I figured I'd ask some people that were there what it was actually like. I've heard over and over about how Society Hill used to be rough, how hookers, bums and addicts were all over the area. How the city/federal government funded a gentrification effort, how Washington Square used to be full of pedos etc etc. Just thought it would be interesting to learn a bit of recent history about my neighborhood. God forbid! You need to lighten up. Get laid, smoke a joint, whatever it is just don't ever reply to a thread of mine again. Thanks!

As radiocolin noted, the tranny hookers remain along Locust Street in the Gayborhood, and the children still gather 'round 13th Street (no longer "OK") Pizza late at night before heading to the balls or wherever it is they are going. There was a period a few years back when that block, which includes Woody's, not as much Philly's "default gay bar" as it used to be but still popular, had gotten pretty scary to traverse late at night - I believe ArcticSplash, who was EastChestnut then, could tell you about gunfire erupting on that block on at least two occasions in the late '90s/early '00s. I think it's calmed down since - the crowds are boisterous but not threatening IMO. Then again, I'm older and no longer out that much that late.

And btw: Gays are the shock troops of gentrification in most cases. But both NoLibs and Queen Village gentrified without their help, by and large. Collingswood, N.J., is a different story altogether.

There's a scene where he's a kid where he gets off at St. Martens station, which is currently on the Chestnut Hill West line. Not sure what line it would have been on at the time of the movie.

Chestnut Hill West line now, Chestnut Hill West (R8/PRR Chestnut Hill) line then. And it's St. Martin's.

[ZARK]

You could walk on Newmarket Street into the city? You must've lived there before I-95 was pushed through.

And btw, you may not have called it Northern Liberties, but that's been the area's name since the early 1700s, when Northern Liberties District (a class of municipality in 18th- and 19th-century Pennsylvania, now extinct) was created out of the "Liberty Lands" William Penn reserved as "country space" for buyers of plots in his new city. I remember when Liberties Restaurant opened on 2nd Street in the mid-1980s and the owners were touting NoLibs as Center City's "next big neighborhood". I think it held on to that status for almost 20 years before finally fulfilling it.



Yes I did live here well before I-95 destroyed much of the area and leveled many of my friends homes. Back then New Market street stretched clear from Germantown Ave to Vine street. My favorite route to go downtown in the summer was along Front st. The many corrugated metal awnings and the EL structure gave us plenty of shade from the hot summer sun, also the Reading freight yards were like our playgrounds until we got chased of by the watchmen.. and yes I do know the history of the name of Northern Liberties, just back then when we were 11,12 and 13 year old hoodrats, what did we care.

[RittenhouseGirl]

Skid row? I don't remember that area being called that, but though most xxx places of that area are gone, some are not. It never felt unsafe though. The area I remember as being most unsafe was just across broad from there and just a little north. Lots of houses (mansions/odd things) and people, but no lights when dusk came.

Sorry to reply so late in the game, but Skid Row, according to my grandparents who lived in Center City as well was an area somewhere between Penn's Landing and Washington Square park. This is back in the 1930s and earlier and my mother even remembers it being bad in the early 40s. I think this area was seedy perhaps since the late 1800s.

According to my grandparents, homeless kids congregated in alleys and small streets and went to beg for food. or steal food during the day. If these kids were lucky enough, they would find a day job to support themselves. We are talking about 8-year-olds. This is before welfare and Social Security. Life was much tougher back then.

I am not aware of any other reference to a Skid Row in Center City. But perhaps any pocket that has a steady seedy element could be called that.

[krapug1]

I realize that I'm chiming in late, but I may as well throw my observations in.
But I never thought Center City rough. The Chestnut Street Transitway was forlorn after 5, and this was when Brooks Brothers was still at 15th and Chestnut. (Staples occupies its old location.) At night, you'd have street photographers setting up backdrops on the wide sidewalks and taking pictures for paying customers. And Hgirl points out accurately that no Center City retailer stayed open past 6, except the two department stores, which stayed open until *7* on Wednesdays. Rendell cajoling the retailers to "Make It a Night" on Wednesdays was the beginning of the retail revival that has even taken hold of Chestnut since the Transitway was removed.. Martin's.

Back in the day, Wednesday was always Center City's "evening" shopping day, each city had one, (New York was Thursday, Newark was Wednesday and so on). Through the 70's and into the 80's, S & C, JW and Gimbels stayed open until 9:00 on Wednesday, in fact the entire Gallery complex stayed open until 8:00 every day (9:00 on Wed) until Gimbel's folded in 1986.
The stores around Rittenhouse Square (Walnut, Chesnut, around Bonwit Teller) usually stayed open until 8:00 on Wednesday. It is correct that Chesnut Street looked forlorn in the evening, as it's retail corridor was decimated by the transit way, the opening of The Gallery, and the stretch west of Broad dotted with movie theatres that drew people considered to be the wrong crowd.
For those newbies that wonder why Center City lacks a first run, general release, movie theatre, it's the ghosts of those Chesnut Street movie houses that many people remember.
The Rendell era program on Wednesday evenings, "make it a night" was an attempt to restore evening shopping on Wednesdays (amoung the smaller retailers), but after a couple of Holiday Seasons, it was changed into a shop center city on Sunday, campaign.

Ken

[DCnPhilly]

I used to visit Philly from VA as a kid because my family is from the area. I always felt like a bad a*s going back to my my little school in Appalachia with stories of Philly in the early 80s. Honestly the grit from that time is what always made me want to eventually move here and I love that we still have a bit of an edge. Everyone else took trips to DC and even though it was a little rough in the 80s, the parts you'd tour were like Disney World. You can't avoid Philly's in your face edge even around Independence Hall.

I know its changed for the better, but I wad fascinated with the citys macabre look back then. One Meridian Place was terrifying. I would still love to see the convention center area back then.

[Notcom]

So I guess if we could sum up this thread it would be that in the 50's and 60's a red neon light meant Wanamakers, Strawbridges and Gimbels were "open tonight", whereas in the 70's and 80's it meant the tranny hookers were...

[Titus]

Sorry to reply so late in the game, but Skid Row, according to my grandparents who lived in Center City as well was an area somewhere between Penn's Landing and Washington Square park. This is back in the 1930s and earlier and my mother even remembers it being bad in the early 40s. I think this area was seedy perhaps since the late 1800s.

According to my grandparents, homeless kids congregated in alleys and small streets and went to beg for food. or steal food during the day. If these kids were lucky enough, they would find a day job to support themselves. We are talking about 8-year-olds. This is before welfare and Social Security. Life was much tougher back then.

I am not aware of any other reference to a Skid Row in Center City. But perhaps any pocket that has a steady seedy element could be called that.

The Tenderloin Doughboy | Hidden City Philadelphia

[DCnPhilly]

The Tenderloin Doughboy | Hidden City Philadelphia

Another...

Philly Bricks: The Furnished Room District and Tenderloin

[2happy4u]

I remember riding the trolly to Lit Brothers,Gimbels and Wannamakers. I worked there as a young man around 13th & chestnut. At that time they just repaved Chestnut st for the bicentennial, at that time it was like a work of art. I never had a problem in CC back then, IMO things took a turn for the worse after in the 80's with the addition of the The Gallery.

[harryk]

Skid Row was centered along Vine, from 5th to 10th Street, from the 1880s onward (or at least until highway and urban redevelopment projects, like the Franklin-Callowhill East Urban Renewal project of the late 1960s) "cleaned up" that part of town (although that area is still desolate). But I remember reading someplace that the entire city, east of Broad Street from South Street to Girard Avenue--the original city of Philadelphia and Northern Liberties--was generally considered Skid Row (or at least severely depressed).

[harryk]

"I just read David Goodis's Street of No Return. There's a neighborhood called the Hellhole not far from Skid Row. Was that a name for Callowhill East?"

I've seen references to Hellhole or Helltown as being not far from Skid Row. It was supposedly in upper Old City, long ago, around Race and Vine Streets, maybe above Fourth Street. It makes sense because Vine Street was the northeastern boundary of the city until 1854, so law enforcement would be minimal at that time and place. Then again, close by at Fifth Street and where Spring Garden Street came to be was a very fine place to live in the mid-nineteenth century. Four churches (or different denominations) were within a stone’s throw of one another, and two Quaker meetinghouses were also within walking distance. Plus, there were many townhouse mansions in that zone. When Quaker, Jewish and other early Philadelphia industrialists vacated the district by the 1900s, the townhouses often became boardinghouses and tenements packed with German Jews, Irish Catholics, Russian Jews, and other immigrant families. Still later, some were torn down to make way for factories as industry solidified in the region. By World War II, the remaining of these once-fine dwellings were falling apart. They were old, overcrowded, and substandard (unsafe; not up to code; often rented “as-is” without heat, electricity or running water), having accommodated waves of immigrants for at least a hundred years.

See also Metraux, Stephen. “Waiting for the Wrecking Ball: Skid Row in Postindustrial Philadelphia.” 25 Journal of Urban History 690-715, July 1999.