Why are national retailers reluctant to locate in Center City?

**Phillyurban8** · 07-26-2011, 05:05 PM

We have one of the largest residential populations in an American downtown, great mass transit and yet national retailers ignore Center City completely or only dip a tentative toe with a shop a fraction of what they'd build elsewhere.

Is it perception? City wage taxes? Strong unions?

I suppose our lack of national chains makes CC more unique but I'm also wondering if it makes us look second rate? We market ourselves as a great place to make movies but does anyone know if there is an active effort to entice national retailers?

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 05:13 PM

Given the huge number of national retailers who DO have locations in Center City, could you point out which ones you're thinking of? That will probably be easier than me posting a laundry list.

**Phillyurban8** · 07-26-2011, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Morley

Given the huge number of national retailers who DO have locations in Center City, could you point out which ones you're thinking of? That will probably be easier than me posting a laundry list.

Bloomingdales
Forever 21
Abercrombie and Fitch
Nordstrom
Saks
Gucci
Pottery Barn
Crate and Barrel
A Levis store
Holister

Pretty much everything that Chicago's Magificent Mile and San Francisco's Union Square have that we don't. Let's face it, there's something VERY wrong when it takes years and years for Apple to open a store and a tiny "outpost" at that, when we have several universities nearby including Penn, which should have been reason enough.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Phillyurban8

Let's face it, there's something VERY wrong when it takes years and years for Apple to open a store and a tiny "outpost" at that, when we have several universities nearby including Penn, which should have been reason enough.

Specious argument, as we had (still have?) a large and established Apple retailer in CC on whose feet Apple didn't want to trod. And, if Apple is still running the same deals they did when I was a college student, they're selling computers directly though Penn and Drexel; last I heard, Drexel was giving every incoming student an iPod.

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Morley

Specious argument, as we had (still have?) a large and established Apple retailer in CC on whose feet Apple didn't want to trod.

WRONG. Apple has no problem stepping on independent Apple stores. I guess Apple didn't want to step on Tekserves toes in NYC as they only have 3 flagship stores and the largest Apple store to date coming to Grand Central. All within two miles from Tekserve.

**Phillyurban8** · 07-26-2011, 05:55 PM

I think Philly has a "stink" on it. I don't know what it is exactly but retailers are reluctant. We're like the guy who looks good but forgets to wear deodorant and then doesn't know why people stay clear of him.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by MTEMPLE

WRONG. Apple has no problem stepping on independent Apple stores. I guess Apple didn't want to step on Tekserves toes in NYC as they only have 3 flagship stores and the largest Apple store to date coming to Grand Central. All within two miles from Tekserve.

What NYC's market will bear and what Philly's market will bear are two different things. By several orders of magnitude.

And I read something interesting about the 5th Ave store recently; apparently there's some question as to whether or not it clears a profit, as Apple folds all the numbers together for retail so you can't pick out indivual loccations. It doesn't matter if it does or not, as it's a huge advertising boon for the company.

Originally Posted by Phillyurban8

I think Philly has a "stink" on it.

Yes, that was clear from your first post. But rather than pick and chose information to fit your hypothesis, why not look at the whole thing critically? So you get an actual answer rather than the one you're looking for?

First, we should take into account that we're coming out of the second major recession in the last decade, and that the two of them in a row have put a big damper on retail expansion, especially when a company feels it is already represented in a market (why put a store downtown in the middle of a recession when your store(s) in suburban malls are doing good business?

Then you've got the problem that the department store as a model is dying, which takes Saks, Nordstrom's, and Bloomie's off the list.

A&F has been teetering on the edge of bankrupcy for a few years now, and it's only a matter of time until they go over.

Crate and Barrel and Pottery barn (both of which are already well-represented in Philly) need very large spaces, and there aren't that many in CC which aren't spoken for, though I could see one of them going into Border's space once it's gone, as that would put them head to head with West Elm.

So that leaves:

Forever 21
Gucci
A Levis store
Holister

which I can't account for.

I'm surprised that we don't have a Gucci store.

Levi's might be scared off by what's happened to Diesel, but that's just a guess.

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 06:21 PM

Wrong again. The 5th street underground store has proven to be it's most profitable in NYC. Average $440 million a year.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by MTEMPLE

Wrong again. The 5th street underground store has proven to be it's most profitable in NYC. Average $440 million a year.

Source?

I'm coming up with $350 million, but that's just an estimate.

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 06:30 PM

My Apple Shareholder's Prospectus. The Apple SoHo store averages $100 million.

**fsmith** · 07-26-2011, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Phillyurban8

We have one of the largest residential populations in an American downtown, great mass transit and yet national retailers ignore Center City completely or only dip a tentative toe with a shop a fraction of what they'd build elsewhere.

Is it perception? City wage taxes? Strong unions?

I suppose our lack of national chains makes CC more unique but I'm also wondering if it makes us look second rate? We market ourselves as a great place to make movies but does anyone know if there is an active effort to entice national retailers?

It'a because we have the highest percentage of poverty level people of any major city in the U.S. There is a reason why Nordstroms built in Cherry Hill and not in CC, even when there were wonderul, historic properties right on Market street prime for the picking. Even though the polititians and the so called economic developers want you to think that CC is the greatest thing since swiss cheese, the fact of the matter is is that it's a small bubble in the middle of a very, very depressed area. Sad, but true, unfortunately.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by MTEMPLE

My Apple Shareholder's Prospectus. The Apple SoHo store averages $100 million.

Great! So you can post a picture!

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Morley

Great! So you can post a picture!

Don't be an ass. Find the info for yourself because I could care less if you believe me or not.

**loveisnoise** · 07-26-2011, 06:39 PM

If this is going to turn into a CC Apple thread-I'd like to point out that Sprigboard just opened a 2nd location on 12th street last week, resigned their lease in the old place, and Bundy is still strong. Independent Apple Stores are still viable, and offer a different experience and often more competitive prices if the person is not able to use an educational discount.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by MTEMPLE

Don't be an ass. Find the info for yourself because I could care less if you believe me or not.

So you don't actually have the prospectius? Why not just admit where you got the numbers you posted from, instead of lying? It wasn't that hard to find, based on your posts.

**loveisnoise** · 07-26-2011, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Morley

Source?

I'm coming up with $350 million, but that's just an estimate.

So even at $350million, that's $35k per square feet. If they're not making money off that number, then there's something seriously wrong.

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Morley

So you don't actually have the prospectius? Why not just admit where you got the numbers you posted from, instead of lying? It wasn't that hard to find, based on your posts.

Nice try dufus. Been a share holder since it was $9 a share. Maybe you should stick to the political forum because when it comes to business and finance you're out of your league.

**londoner** · 07-26-2011, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by fsmith

It'a because we have the highest percentage of poverty level people of any major city in the U.S. There is a reason why Nordstroms built in Cherry Hill and not in CC, even when there were wonderul, historic properties right on Market street prime for the picking. Even though the polititians and the so called economic developers want you to think that CC is the greatest thing since swiss cheese, the fact of the matter is is that it's a small bubble in the middle of a very, very depressed area. Sad, but true, unfortunately.

Eh, And in that so-called small bubble there are 100,000 mildly affluent to EXTREMELY affluent residents; thousands more affluent students across the river; 250,000 daily office workers; and a huge tourism industry that brings in millions and millions of visitors annually. I think we have enough people walking the streets to support a crate and barrel, guy.

**MTEMPLE** · 07-26-2011, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by loveisnoise

So even at $350million, that's $35k per square feet. If they're not making money off that number, then there's something seriously wrong.

Mr Dufus is most likely referring to articles posted for 3 years ago that stated the 5th did $440 in 2009. In 2010 it topped $475.

**Mr Morley** · 07-26-2011, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by MTEMPLE

Nice try dufus. Been a share holder since it was $9 a share.

Really? So why aren't you willing to post a pic of the page of your "prospectus"?

And why is it that this AppleInsider article contains all the info you posted, including the (bizarre) wording you used?
AppleInsider | 5th Avenue store brings Apple $440 million per year

Your mistake was in using the word "prospectus". Nice try, though.