Why are national retailers reluctant to locate in Center City?

[loveisnoise]

They are in downtown Seattle, Denver... no reason it couldn't be in The Gallery or along Market East somewhere. Anyway the idea is a CF or a CF-like place--a family friendly chain restaurant that people get excited about.

The one in Denver is part of a high end eating and shopping center that is attached to high end hotels. The one in Seattle is an older one that was put in with the convention center.

If market east was so viable, why is there no one in there already? It won't happen, and neither the cheesecake factory nor its competitors are risk takers for new models-that's why we got a hard rock cafe.

[hammersklavier]

Market East is a victim of its own entropy: in particular the difficulty of adapting a built form to changing trends.

Toronto's Eaton Centre got pretty bad before a major renovation repositioned it. Manchester Arndale got even worse--and now one of its anchors is England's version of Neiman Marcus! Something similar happened with Milwaukee's Shops of Grand Avenue, and apparently Cleveland's Tower City Center is in a state of decay...It seems urban malls can go through a decay-and-revitalization cycle, and it's just our bad luck our Gallery's at the bottom of its decay phase.

[loveisnoise]

Hammer,
I agree but there's a bigger problem somewhere. I watch the traffic a couple times a month. We have a convention center, farmers market, and mall attached- yet a customer of one will rarely go to another. Something needs changed in that annex that connects them all.

Market East is a victim of its own entropy: in particular the difficulty of adapting a built form to changing trends.

Toronto's Eaton Centre got pretty bad before a major renovation repositioned it. Manchester Arndale got even worse--and now one of its anchors is England's version of Neiman Marcus! Something similar happened with Milwaukee's Shops of Grand Avenue, and apparently Cleveland's Tower City Center is in a state of decay...It seems urban malls can go through a decay-and-revitalization cycle, and it's just our bad luck our Gallery's at the bottom of its decay phase.

[MTEMPLE]

They are in downtown Seattle, Denver... no reason it couldn't be in The Gallery or along Market East somewhere. Anyway the idea is a CF or a CF-like place--a family friendly chain restaurant that people get excited about.

Visit the Seattle location and then get back to us.

[hammersklavier]

Hammer,
I agree but there's a bigger problem somewhere. I watch the traffic a couple times a month. We have a convention center, farmers market, and mall attached- yet a customer of one will rarely go to another. Something needs changed in that annex that connects them all.

Agreed that the poor layout and chronic inability of Metro Commercial to lease the Terminal headhouse is problematic...but it does not detract from my initial statement.

I have advocated already considering the atrium in that section the natural extension of the Reading Terminal Market. The sports bar is also problematic, as it blocks the natural southward flow of the Terminal Market across Fitler and towards the Gallery...The Reading Terminal headhouse's atrium should be a major entrance and point of interlinkage between all three major facilities...Relocating it may prove helpful (assuming it doesn't fail on its own, and there are way better sports bars in Center City; this just happens to be the most accessible to suburbanites).

By the way, when you consider the argument that the Gallery's problem is in part passé aesthetics, think about Manchester Arndale's original façade:

being replaced by:

thx Wikipedia!

When you hear about reinvestments in downtown malls, they usually come with major renovations.

[BarryG]

Visit the Seattle location and then get back to us.

It woud look pretty good here!

[MTEMPLE]

It woud look pretty good here!

It's an outdoor mall around there in Seattle. Right across the street there is a movie theater, a Gameworks, large Nike Town, a themed restaurant named Daily Grill, Starbucks, New balance store and the main entrance in the Convention Center. The Gallery would have to greatly change first.

[BarryG]

It's an outdoor mall around there in Seattle. Right across the street there is a movie theater, a Gameworks, large Nike Town, a themed restaurant named Daily Grill, Starbucks, New balance store and the main entrance in the Convention Center. The Gallery would have to greatly change first.

I agree with you. A CF or similar would be part of that change. I mean really we already have Hard Rock, Chilis, Maggianos serving convention goes and tourists. We know there is a market there. The Convention Center, Liberty Bell and Independence Hall are big draws. I'm not passionate about this, big changes are needed I just see a gap in dining options for tourists and suburbanites around the tourist area. It also made me realize that Society Hill Towers presents an unfortunate obstacle for restaurants around Headhouse Sq. Many won't find Pizzeria Stella by wondering around since the towers present a big physical barrier and its too easy for tourists to get lost trying to find it and too hard to explain how to get there.

[kidphilly]

I agree with you. A CF or similar would be part of that change. I mean really we already have Hard Rock, Chilis, Maggianos serving convention goes and tourists. We know there is a market there. The Convention Center, Liberty Bell and Independence Hall are big draws. I'm not passionate about this, big changes are needed I just see a gap in dining options for tourists and suburbanites around the tourist area. It also made me realize that Society Hill Towers presents an unfortunate obstacle for restaurants around Headhouse Sq. Many won't find Pizzeria Stella by wondering around since the towers present a big physical barrier and its too easy for tourists to get lost trying to find it and too hard to explain how to get there.

The Society Hill towers in this context are another reminder of what this period in design/planning/architecture coninues to make its mark. (you can actually walk straight through from second to second on the other side, but agree it looks so visually blocking) It ia slo a shame more folks (tourists dont come accross and down Pine here, just a gorgeous few blocks there) to the headhouse area. Eventually though headhouse may get better connected with the waterfront if that development ever happens


ME to me make the most sense. A better connection and touristy type stuff along this stretch would better connect Ind Mall and Center City (not to mention Walnut Street and the Rittenhouse) often off the tourists radar and one of the cities greatest assets. For whatever it seems very few tourists venture down Chestnut/Walnut/Locust/Spruce between Ind Mall and Center City so a better ME would enhance the experience and likely perception. I wish these folks would travle the other routes as to me it better showcases the city but either way an improved ME would help.

Also in terms of the ME area is there way to incentivize hotel development along this stretch to support the PCC and tourists. This area seems like a no brainer and is still close for business travelers to Market West

[dartmo]

yeah, the options at Bourse are quite depressing. A Cheesecake Factory there could be perfect, but they generally like to be in well off malls with strong foot traffic and Bourse's retail seems to almost entirely depend on the tourists, who are only here in large numbers during summer. Basically, a company like CF won't take the first step, they will only show up once there's critical mass.

And there are a lot of tour bus companies that do a whistle stop tour of east coast cities, with barely a 2-hour halt in Philly... all they do is herd the tourists to Liberty Bell Pavilion and to Indy Hall, then point to the Bourse for them to go eat and/or shop for camera batteries. A lot of Asian tourists coming through on buses seem to only see that part of Philly. They don't have the time to even wander around a few blocks east on Market or Chestnut where they might find a ton of great local food and drink choice. So even for that reason, the Bourse building ought to be better utilized. That whole basement level seems to be empty. And I'm not sure the top floors are all occupied either.

I agree, it would be great to have improved options in the Bourse. You'd think with buses parked literally on the doorstep, it would be easy to populate it with some more quality options. CF would probably be better in ME, you could capture tourists and conventioneers there and it may lead to some improvement to the Gallery.

[krapug1]

As a number of posters mentioned, restaurants like The Cheesecake Factory may not be our choice for dining, BUT they are hyper popular with middle-America, and having more of them in CC may keep
more business in-town. The question comes back to where would they locate.

The Gallery itself has it's own challenges, and while it may not be as prosperous as some other "downtown" malls around the nation (or world), it is still open. That places The Gallery well ahead of many other cities that HAD large downtown malls only to see them falter and close. St. Louis Center, Columbus Center, Rochester Mid-Town Plaza, and many others are examples of large, multi-anchor, downtown malls that
are gone.

What city leaders and PREIT need to do is develop the Strawbridge space. PREIT needs to accept the fact that they are not going to lure a retailer to take the Strawbridge space in it's entirety. Even if an anchor can be found, which at this point I doubt, they will want only 2 floors maximum. That leaves 4 remaining floors to develop, but the building is close enough the Independence park complex to lure tourists if it is developed the right way.

Ken

[BarryG]

As a number of posters mentioned, restaurants like The Cheesecake Factory may not be our choice for dining, BUT they are hyper popular with middle-America, and having more of them in CC may keep
more business in-town. The question comes back to where would they locate.

Man it's too true. Check this out:

If you want a luxurious dinner in a fancy restaurant, I’d suggest you head to The Cheesecake Factory. Their Denver location is stunningly beautiful. With dim lighting and the wonderful service, your sure to enjoy a romantic meal!

That is not irony folks.

Link: Colorado Critics: The Cheesecake Factory in downtown Denver!

Here's an interesting article where the founder explains his success: The Cheesecake Factory: Feeding the 'Common Man' - ABC News
Summary: Fancy-sounding but not intimidating dishes and huge portions.

[londoner]

It woud look pretty good here!

I think the comparative photographs silently say a lot about some of the issues with ME... look at the Seattle photo, with it's high arch, ample street lighting, welcoming sleek glass...i actually feel like walking down that street, it looks inviting and modern.

Now let's think about all of the buildings covering the street in ME...they are all very low to the ground, dark, dank...they cut off and inhibit fluid movement throughout the entire area. Even the alley between Reading Terminal and the Sportsbar is dark and uninviting. It also completely eliminates any potential for retailers to occupy those spaces...so we are left with multiple dead blocks...

[hammersklavier]

As a number of posters mentioned, restaurants like The Cheesecake Factory may not be our choice for dining, BUT they are hyper popular with middle-America, and having more of them in CC may keep
more business in-town. The question comes back to where would they locate.

The Gallery itself has it's own challenges, and while it may not be as prosperous as some other "downtown" malls around the nation (or world), it is still open. That places The Gallery well ahead of many other cities that HAD large downtown malls only to see them falter and close. St. Louis Center, Columbus Center, Rochester Mid-Town Plaza, and many others are examples of large, multi-anchor, downtown malls that
are gone.

What city leaders and PREIT need to do is develop the Strawbridge space. PREIT needs to accept the fact that they are not going to lure a retailer to take the Strawbridge space in it's entirety. Even if an anchor can be found, which at this point I doubt, they will want only 2 floors maximum. That leaves 4 remaining floors to develop, but the building is close enough the Independence park complex to lure tourists if it is developed the right way.

Ken

Ken--all of the floors in the Strawbridge's building above the Gallery concourse are occupied by offices. The state offices are in the former retail space.

There are only four available levels at ~75k sf each. I've suggested before subdividing the basement for a big box-y tenant (I've suggested Syms, Filene's Basement, or Daffy's before) and marketing the rest of the space (1+2+3) to a major retailer. 225k sf is lots of space for a department store.

Another possibility is to subdivide B+1,2+3, or B,1,2+3, particularly if you've got a potential anchor that only wants 150k sf of space. In any case, however, I don't think a situation like B+1+2,3 will yield a viable top-floor space.

A sub-possibility may be relocating the main food court to such a space. But IMO the best space for a main food court is on one of the skywalks (preferably 9th St. to spatially separate food vending elements in the mall--the area around the transit concourse entrance is a natural food court).

Also it's worth mentioning that Manchester Arndale is successful in spite of being in the same area as the Trafford Centre--Great Britain's King of Prussia.

I've said this before, and I'll harp on it again: what's keeping the Gallery down is its own entropy. Taxes don't help, but it's mostly entropy. What it needs is, therefore, an aggressive repositioning.

[Bleeper]

I've said this before, and I'll harp on it again: what's keeping the Gallery down is its own entropy. Taxes don't help, but it's mostly entropy. What it needs is, therefore, an aggressive repositioning.

Id say intricate rebuilding. That entire Gallery complex including the Hilton Garden needs to be demolished. Its a sputtering relic,failed experiment, an albatross around the neck of Center City.

Architecturally and functionally its an unattractive restrictive blockade.

Enclosed malls are dying in the suburbs. There is absolutely no place for that retail mausoleum in Center City. None. Those hundreds of retail businesses hidden in that fortress should be the trigger for revitalizing Market,Chestnut and the side streets.

The smartest thing this city could do would be to go kiss Steve Wynn's ass give him the second casino license and have him be the anchor for a new tower where the Gallery currently sits.

You would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. You get rid of the problematic Gallery.

You add an exciting 35 story downtown casino, hotel,spa,condo, apts.

Market East would get a chance to rebrand itself with the Gallery no longer acting as a playground for the public school students of Philadelphia.

[hammersklavier]

I am rather unconvinced a casino would have helped as much as you imply.

Also when you say "aggressive repositioning" in mall-speak, you kind of mean "top-to-bottom renovation and releasing". Which, in urban contexts, implies exactly what you're talking about.

[Bleeper]

I am rather unconvinced a casino would have helped as much as you imply.

Also when you say "aggressive repositioning" in mall-speak, you kind of mean "top-to-bottom renovation and releasing". Which, in urban contexts, implies exactly what you're talking about.

Gambling if done right would take Center City to a higher level. The only problem is that PA + Philadelphia have botched the gambling oppurtunity.

To them its all about maximizing tax revenue, hence the 55% tax rate on slots.In Vegas and AC its 7%. The tradeoff is in AC you get the upscale Borgata, in Vegas they are building the $5 B City Center to support being #1 resort destination , and in Philly you get Sugar Mart.

PA doesnt get the big picture. Gaming to them is re-allocating the disposable income of the elderly,poor, working class, gambling degenerates. Vegas + AC get it. They are not worried about the small time local gambling addicts,Vegas/AC smartly go after the people who can afford to take a week or weekend vacation where they will spend $10 on entertainment for every $1 they spend gambling.

Philadelphia needs one of these world class, fantasyland, getaway resort destinations like The Borgata or Bellagio. Brings outsiders in who would otherwise never vist Center City. They get to see the amazing architecture, museums,Parkway, neighborhoods. Word of mouth spreads and the Borgata like Casino in Philly pays off tenfold.


Would you rather have 10th + Market luring in high-end wealthy gamblers and tourists or kids from the Philadelphia Public School System?

[Bleeper]

Market East is a victim of its own entropy: in particular the difficulty of adapting a built form to changing trends.

Very true. A labryinth of poorly designed and planned infrastructure entombed in a mass of concrete.

Trying to renovate that mess would be futile imo. Adding glass, redesigning the street level facades would help but only slightly and insignificantly.


The 1000-1100 blocks(Gallery) on the N side of market need to be taken down and given a new beginning. The 2nd floor connector corridors starting on the 900 block are just horrendous.

An Iconic casino Tower on the 1000 block of N Market. Try to lure a company like Comcast to expand, build, and anchor a tower on the 900 block. The 345 stores inside the Gallery could help reclaim the awful retail scene on Chestnut + Market. Bring in Target, Boscovs, Nordstroms,Cheesecake factory, Movie Theater, Aartments to improve the South block of Market Streets.

The #1 priority and first chess move that has to happen is eliminating the Gallery's outdated infrastructure and mallish concept.

[hammersklavier]

Manchester Arndale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Worse morass. One of the ugliest façades in the country. Close to the UK's KoP. Fell as far as a downtown mall in a large urban center can get just a decade after it was built...It came back.

You thought Toronto Eaton was a good metaphor for the Gallery's trajectory? Manchester Arndale is better.

[mixiboi]

It woud look pretty good here!

That what the issue is..Damn that 70s building style...If the Gallery was made out of glass, it would be a whole different place...