Market East Transformation?

[Kukla65th]

At this point we just have to sit back and see what happens on Market East. It's architectural stock that today would generate restored building projects perhaps was decimated in the late 70s and early 80s. It has hulking buildings like the Gallery that lend themselves to discount retailers just as much high end anchors. New development will be large scale (Disney hole, Snellenburg site) and anything can happen.

A trip to PhillyHistory reminds us that for much of the 20th Century, Market East was nice in places, down at the heels in others, and (I say this wistfully) covered in mid-century garish neon signage.

It has, as many previous posters said, long been a street everyone uses; it's never had a niche market. We can expect it to look better via redevelopment in coming years, but it will perhaps always be a diverse setting of races, incomes, and businesses appealing to many groups. What better environment to be named for market houses, which have always served such a role.

[DCnPhilly]

Yes

I was going to say, I don't remember downtown sf being quite as pristine as people make it out to be. Odd how their reputation is so different from philly's when i found it to be dirtier and frankly scarier with the huge homeless pop.

Every city I've been to has something like the gallery, it's really not that bad and is only going to get better now that preit seems to have a plan.

Finally! OPTIMISM! Thank you!

I'll admit I'm not the most well traveled guy, but from what I've seen, as far as the country's biggest cities go, Philadelphia easily has the third best downtown. Most have either 9 to 5 wastelands like Los Angeles or completely Disneyfied interpretations of downtown. Philadelphians are way too hard on the city. Ever been to Cleveland or Detroit? Most downtowns have either nothing but vacant Galleries or nothing at all. When friends visit me from all over they are always surprised at how urban and alive our downtown is on the weekends, even on Market East.

[BarryG]

I just feel like places like Portland and Seattle aren't made for real public transit. A lot of residential neighborhoods there look like New Jersey, and they have New Jersey level public transit, stuff like the river line.

What do you mean? SEPTA sucks! Portland has the coolest light rail and you can take your dog on Seattle's buses. At least this is what I keep hearing.

[DCnPhilly]

What do you mean? SEPTA sucks! Portland has the coolest light rail and you can take your dog on Seattle's buses. At least this is what I keep hearing.

I used ti live in Portland (well, Hillsboro), and that's true. The MAX is pet friendly and runs until 2am, which is AWESOME when living in the Phoenixville of Portland. Downtown is another story. Philadelphia's downtown/U City transportation is a lot better. Even Philadelphia's regional rail is better. Sure, it could run later, but for the most part its better because it drops you off in pedestrian friendly suburbs. It's entirely inadvertent. Philadelphia was built around trains. Portland and Seattle's trains were built around the suburbs. People love to hate on SEPTA but its an invaluable asset only surpassed by a very few cities.

[BarryG]

I used ti live in Portland (well, Hillsboro), and that's true. The MAX is pet friendly and runs until 2am, which is AWESOME when living in the Phoenixville of Portland. Downtown is another story. Philadelphia's downtown/U City transportation is a lot better. Even Philadelphia's regional rail is better. Sure, it could run later, but for the most part its better because it drops you off in pedestrian friendly suburbs. It's entirely inadvertent. Philadelphia was built around trains. Portland and Seattle's trains were built around the suburbs. People love to hate on SEPTA but its an invaluable asset only surpassed by a very few cities.

Going between UC and CC today, the hardest part was deciding which bus, trolley, or subway to take.

Well that and getting exact change because I was out of tokens. But that will be fixed soon enough.

[DCnPhilly]

Going between UC and CC today, the hardest part was deciding which bus, trolley, or subway to take.

Well that and getting exact change because I was out of tokens. But that will be fixed soon enough.

Yeah but crossing Philly you have options. There's one train or bus taking you across Portland. They let dogs on it but its a car town.

[MarketStEl]

Let's see...Where to begin? Okay, how about all the hatin' on "Everyone's Favorite City"? Far be it from me to pile on, but pile on I will.

Actually, San Francisco goes a step further. They have 50 blocks of blight right in the middle of the downtown core.

Yes

I was going to say, I don't remember downtown sf being quite as pristine as people make it out to be. Odd how their reputation is so different from philly's when i found it to be dirtier and frankly scarier with the huge homeless pop.

Every city I've been to has something like the gallery, it's really not that bad and is only going to get better now that preit seems to have a plan.

This is extremely spot on. I know so many people who are astounded that I am not enjoying being outside San Francisco.

Downtown SF is really not nice. It's extremely block to block. There are a lot of halfway houses, rehab centers, etc in the downtown core. It has one of the largest homeless populations in America. The streets are dirtier than Philly. The transit is inadequate and the parking is worse. The people are smug and entitled.

But let me tell you how I really feel.

Yet it costs 4x as much as Philadelphia and people LOVE it.

When you're spending three-quarters of your income on your place of residence, you're gonna protect your investment emotionally.

On my one visit to the place, in 2006, I thought there was no more beautifully situated city in the United States. I still think that. And there are some drop-dead-gorgeous areas of the city. Nob Hill, Telegraph Hill and Union Square are all quite nice, and I spent plenty of time drooling at all the stuff I could never even hope to afford in Gump's, which makes Neiman Marcus look like Target. (Of course, there's an N-M there too.)

But I ultimately found the place quite off-putting, and it was San Franciscans who put me off to it. When I related my impressions to my Northeast friend Vince, he responded with reference to a "South Park" episode about the great "cloud of smug" that emanated from the city and threatened to suffocate all in its path.

I also shared my impressions with my DC friend Curtis. He finally got a chance to see the place this summer. His text to me as he walked down Market: "Yeah, I can see what you're saying about the smugness, and their Market Street looks an awful lot like yours. But there's a Nordstrom at the end of this one."

krapug has it exactly right: To get higher-end stores, you need higher-end shoppers. San Francisco's cost of living is about four times Philadelphia's, but so is its median household income. The middle class all live on the other side of San Francisco Bay, in places like Oakland.

Oh, and their indoor public food market is way too precious; the Reading Terminal Market is the genuine article. The open-air farmers' market on City Hall Plaza is better but not as good as the RTM - or the City Hall market's Rittenhouse Square analogue.

I was so surprised when I made my trip out to Seattle how little good transit there was, and it seems like it's the same way all over the west coast. I suppose the bus system is good, but when you're only going to be in town for a couple of days and have access to a car, it just didn't seem convenient enough to actually try to figure out. I guess I was expecting a hipster/hippie mecca of beer and easy public transit. Whereas in the northeast, just glancing at a map for a couple of minutes gives you a good idea of where the rail transit goes, and even a couple of bus routes that you can figure out.

I'm a big ol' traingeek and railfan, but I am becoming increasingly convinced that the buses get less respect than they deserve. Yeah, they're slower, but they are the workhorses of public transportation.

As for getting around Seattle on them, I had very little problem doing so the one time I visited, also in 2006. (I was visiting my brother, who was living in Woodinville at the time, and decided to add a side trip to San Fran as well.) Google "Woodinville, Wash." and see where it is relative to Seattle on a map. My brother lived in a 1960s subdivision of modest modern ranchers surrounded by tall pines and arrayed on a maze of twisty little streets, all alike. I took the bus from there into Seattle one morning and got around the city pretty well using the buses connecting downtown with adjacent areas. However, I probably couldn't have gotten back on one at the hour of night I finished carousing with some foodie friends.

Seattle is building a pre-metro (light rail line with full grade separation and stations). But again, that's just one line.

Finally! OPTIMISM! Thank you!

I'll admit I'm not the most well traveled guy, but from what I've seen, as far as the country's biggest cities go, Philadelphia easily has the third best downtown. Most have either 9 to 5 wastelands like Los Angeles or completely Disneyfied interpretations of downtown. Philadelphians are way too hard on the city. Ever been to Cleveland or Detroit? Most downtowns have either nothing but vacant Galleries or nothing at all. When friends visit me from all over they are always surprised at how urban and alive our downtown is on the weekends, even on Market East.

I spent a surprisingly enjoyable weekend in Columbus, Ohio, a few years back. The neighborhood immediately north of downtown, the "Short North," is South Street and Old City rolled into one, and people go gallery-hopping and strolling on it on weekends. South of downtown, there's German Village, quieter but with an interesting mix of shops and restaurants.

Downtown? Despite Columbus being the state capital, it was near-dead even at noon. And there was a completely dead and abandoned Gallery-like mall connected to our hotel. Not one department store remains in business downtown either. The principal difference between Columbus and Detroit was Columbus had fewer empty lots and its buildings are in way better shape.

I used ti live in Portland (well, Hillsboro), and that's true. The MAX is pet friendly and runs until 2am, which is AWESOME when living in the Phoenixville of Portland. Downtown is another story. Philadelphia's downtown/U City transportation is a lot better. Even Philadelphia's regional rail is better. Sure, it could run later, but for the most part its better because it drops you off in pedestrian friendly suburbs. It's entirely inadvertent. Philadelphia was built around trains. Portland and Seattle's trains were built around the suburbs. People love to hate on SEPTA but its an invaluable asset only surpassed by a very few cities.

Portland has regional rail? News to me, unless you're placing that burden on MAX as well.

[CountFunkula]

I want some of whatever you people are smoking. I'm a hometown guy but wow.

[Volanova]

Yeah but crossing Philly you have options. There's one train or bus taking you across Portland. They let dogs on it but its a car town.

I'd love to be able to go with my friends who have dogs and take them on the train, el, subway or trolley. But then again, they're well trained and friendly dogs who will sit still and behave themselves when told to. However, could you imagine what this would entail throughout most of the city? There would be attacks daily by some idiot with his fighting dog on either other riders or other riders' pets.

[Notcom]

Let's see...Where to begin? Okay, how about all the hatin' on "Everyone's Favorite City"? Far be it from me to pile on, but pile on I will.

Going to San Francisco? Leave early, be patient - Inside Bay Area

(sigh) only SF could make a traffic advisory sound self-important.

[DCnPhilly]

Let's see...Where to begin? Okay, how about all the hatin' on "Everyone's Favorite City"? Far be it from me to pile on, but pile on I will.







When you're spending three-quarters of your income on your place of residence, you're gonna protect your investment emotionally.

On my one visit to the place, in 2006, I thought there was no more beautifully situated city in the United States. I still think that. And there are some drop-dead-gorgeous areas of the city. Nob Hill, Telegraph Hill and Union Square are all quite nice, and I spent plenty of time drooling at all the stuff I could never even hope to afford in Gump's, which makes Neiman Marcus look like Target. (Of course, there's an N-M there too.)

But I ultimately found the place quite off-putting, and it was San Franciscans who put me off to it. When I related my impressions to my Northeast friend Vince, he responded with reference to a "South Park" episode about the great "cloud of smug" that emanated from the city and threatened to suffocate all in its path.

I also shared my impressions with my DC friend Curtis. He finally got a chance to see the place this summer. His text to me as he walked down Market: "Yeah, I can see what you're saying about the smugness, and their Market Street looks an awful lot like yours. But there's a Nordstrom at the end of this one."

krapug has it exactly right: To get higher-end stores, you need higher-end shoppers. San Francisco's cost of living is about four times Philadelphia's, but so is its median household income. The middle class all live on the other side of San Francisco Bay, in places like Oakland.

Oh, and their indoor public food market is way too precious; the Reading Terminal Market is the genuine article. The open-air farmers' market on City Hall Plaza is better but not as good as the RTM - or the City Hall market's Rittenhouse Square analogue.



I'm a big ol' traingeek and railfan, but I am becoming increasingly convinced that the buses get less respect than they deserve. Yeah, they're slower, but they are the workhorses of public transportation.

As for getting around Seattle on them, I had very little problem doing so the one time I visited, also in 2006. (I was visiting my brother, who was living in Woodinville at the time, and decided to add a side trip to San Fran as well.) Google "Woodinville, Wash." and see where it is relative to Seattle on a map. My brother lived in a 1960s subdivision of modest modern ranchers surrounded by tall pines and arrayed on a maze of twisty little streets, all alike. I took the bus from there into Seattle one morning and got around the city pretty well using the buses connecting downtown with adjacent areas. However, I probably couldn't have gotten back on one at the hour of night I finished carousing with some foodie friends.

Seattle is building a pre-metro (light rail line with full grade separation and stations). But again, that's just one line.



I spent a surprisingly enjoyable weekend in Columbus, Ohio, a few years back. The neighborhood immediately north of downtown, the "Short North," is South Street and Old City rolled into one, and people go gallery-hopping and strolling on it on weekends. South of downtown, there's German Village, quieter but with an interesting mix of shops and restaurants.

Downtown? Despite Columbus being the state capital, it was near-dead even at noon. And there was a completely dead and abandoned Gallery-like mall connected to our hotel. Not one department store remains in business downtown either. The principal difference between Columbus and Detroit was Columbus had fewer empty lots and its buildings are in way better shape.



Portland has regional rail? News to me, unless you're placing that burden on MAX as well.

I wouldn't say burden, but yeah. I was comparing the MAX to our regional rail. It's a light rail but it serves as their suburban commuter rail. It does a fine job of it, I just think SEPTA is better. Philly's also a lot bigger and older. My point was simply that Philly benefits from having been built around rail while most of the rest of the country's commuter rails were built around existing cities.

With regard to the San Fran hate, South Park probably sums up most people's opinions. It's a great and beautiful city, and if San Franciscan's weren't so high and mighty about that it would get more respect. A girl at a bar asked me to take a picture of her and her friends and when I couldn't figure out how to work her iPhone - the MONTH they came out - she got pissy and said, "this would never hpen at home in San Francisco." I'm not judging the city entirely on one encounter with a mustached **** in an unpressed Lilith ir dress, but that kind of arrogance seems to be echoed in a lot of run ins with San Franciscans. I know five wonderful people who live in the Bay Area and they love thecity, but each also says that dealing with opinionated douchebaggery is the price you pay to live there...on top of the price.

[dontforget]

PREIT is pretty much done renovating Cherry Hill Mall. Moorestown Mall will be tweaked lightly but nothing as drastic. So, next on the list could be the Gallery.

Why doesn't PREIT try to lure Boscov's now into the former Strawbridge's site? Boscov's has recovered from bankruptcy and has opened stores since (Monmouth Mall, White Marsh Mall and Woodbridge Center). The latter two were part of a group deal as the mall owner was the same.

Boscov lacks a presence in Philly and Mercer County, but has Southern NJ well covered and a lot of the Philly metropolitan area and upping towards Central NJ past Mercer County.

PREIT and Boscov have a symbiotic dependency in some ways as well: Voorhees Town Center, Cumberland Mall (Vineland), Moorestown Mall and Plymouth Meeting Mall.

From Boscov's angle, I'd think it'd be more useful for a relocation of the Voorhees Boscov to the Gallery if they can't justify opening another store and it could work with PREIT for that arrangement.

The Moorestown and Deptford Boscov locations are so close anyways within Southern NJ, and the PATCO travelers could shop at the 8th&Market Philadelphia location. Voorhees Boscov site could be demolished for more upscale apartments or some non retail establishment.

[MariusPontmercy]

PREIT is pretty much done renovating Cherry Hill Mall. Moorestown Mall will be tweaked lightly but nothing as drastic. So, next on the list could be the Gallery.

Why doesn't PREIT try to lure Boscov's now into the former Strawbridge's site? Boscov's has recovered from bankruptcy and has opened stores since (Monmouth Mall, White Marsh Mall and Woodbridge Center). The latter two were part of a group deal as the mall owner was the same.

Boscov lacks a presence in Philly and Mercer County, but has Southern NJ well covered and a lot of the Philly metropolitan area and upping towards Central NJ past Mercer County.

PREIT and Boscov have a symbiotic dependency in some ways as well: Voorhees Town Center, Cumberland Mall (Vineland), Moorestown Mall and Plymouth Meeting Mall.

From Boscov's angle, I'd think it'd be more useful for a relocation of the Voorhees Boscov to the Gallery if they can't justify opening another store and it could work with PREIT for that arrangement.

The Moorestown and Deptford Boscov locations are so close anyways within Southern NJ, and the PATCO travelers could shop at the 8th&Market Philadelphia location. Voorhees Boscov site could be demolished for more upscale apartments or some non retail establishment.

Boscov's doesn't want to open a city location. They prefer suburban shopping malls and big boxes.

Their loss. A lot of their suburban locations aren't doing very well.

[mixiboi]

Yeah, they just got out of bankruptcy...so opening new stores isn't of high priority.

[krapug1]

Yeah, they just got out of bankruptcy...so opening new stores isn't of high priority.

Forget a Boscov's on Market East, that would have happened before the retail space in the Strawbridge building started being chopped up.

That said, Boscov's is a very suburban, middle market chain, and now that the are back under the ownership of Al Boscov, they are opening 1 to 2 new stores
a year, and in a very cautious way. 1 opening last year, and the 1 opening this fall are re-openings of stores that they closed during their bankruptcy (Monouth Mall and White Marsh).

Woodbridge Center opens next year, as this location is being expanded, and re-done, it was a former Fortunorf.
Woodbridge Center will be a home run for them, as it is a hyper busy, middle income focused mall, with a large percentage of shoppers from Staten Island and Brooklyn. These households usually have a stay at home mom, and they shop like crazy.

If the housewives of the "great Northeast" still shopped in Center City, a Boscov's would make sense.

Ken

[dontforget]

Yeah, they just got out of bankruptcy...so opening new stores isn't of high priority.

The re-opening of Monmouth Mall, White Marsh Mall and new store at Woodbridge Ctr. are all post-bankruptcy. It didn't make news much here since the stores are outside the Philly metropolitan region.

The White Marsh Mall serving Baltimore County isn't that great of a location. It's a 4 anchor mall (macy's, Sears, jcpenney, Boscov's) so competitive across the mid-range stores, and Boscov's is assuming the same position it did before, which didn't work. The mall isn't upscale or destinational, although there is IKEA in the lot there which is destinational.

But it's not that great of a site and the anchor doesn't face any street activity. When Federated (macy's) bought out the May Co. (Hecht's), management chose the Hecht's location and converted it to macy's banner, while closing the original macy's store, since the original macy's store had the inferior anchor positioning. Boscov's then picked up those inferior anchor positioned spots.

Boscov's likely agreed to it again, for reduced rent at Woodbridge Ctr, as the mall owner was same for White Marsh and Woodbridge Ctr., and the announcement was for both of these stores.

In the Phila. region, the only areas lacking Boscov that I can think of really is Center City and up by Mercer County, which is more Central NJ.

[MarketStEl]

If the housewives of the "great Northeast" still shopped in Center City, a Boscov's would make sense.

Ken

"Coming Soon...Boscov's Roosevelt Mall!"

There's actually a structure that would fit the chain perfectly: the former Lit Brothers at Castor and Cottman, which spent its last years of active use as a Clover store.

However: Cottman Avenue is the dividing line between the Near and Far (Lower and Upper) Northeast, and I think there are a non-trivial number of Far Northeast residents who have, um, Issues with all the newcomers who've turned the Lower Northeast all multiculti. (The newcomers in the Far Northeast, by and large, speak Russian, as far as I can tell.)

And Boscov's closed its Lower Northeast location at 300 East Godfrey Avenue (wherever that is - I have yet to figure that out) several years ago, so it's not likely they'd want to return to the area unless that store was closed as part of the bankruptcy-delay strategy. (I don't think that's the case.)

[Outlaw Star]

And Boscov's closed its Lower Northeast location at 300 East Godfrey Avenue (wherever that is - I have yet to figure that out) several years ago, so it's not likely they'd want to return to the area unless that store was closed as part of the bankruptcy-delay strategy. (I don't think that's the case.)

It was the former Ports of the World / Bonn Bakery building in Lawncrest, tucked away just off Rising Sun Avenue east of Adams Avenue. That was always a weird location, not just because it was kind of out of the way, but because they didn't really attempt to retrofit the bakery building, so the place always felt like some strange, Twilight Zone-y retail hodgepodge rather than a real, cohesive store. That said, I do miss its crappy charm--and the fact that they rarely turned over their inventory, so you could usually find ancient or discontinued merchandise in its copious nooks and crannies.

[BarryG]

Historical Commission's Architecture Committee recommends denial of Lit Brothers sign | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

I hope this doesn't poison the whole idea of lights on Market East.

[mixiboi]

Naw, its just protects the historical building from the signage...We still have the Gallery and the future plans of that..