Convention Center Expansion and North Broad Renaissance?

[Phillyurban8]

I'm wondering if the Convention Center expansion to North Broad Street will herald North Broad's revival at least around the Vine Street area. The Divine Lorraine looks hopeless at this point so I'm thinking the catalyst will in fact be the dazzling, new front door to the Convention Center. Any thoughts on the matter?

[desolate]

The supermarket complex at Wilkie (between Vine ans Spring Garden) will do more to drag long term residents into the area.

The Convention Center will increase land values and increase retail demand. It also removed a good deal of fallow land and abandoned buildings. THe hotel and the stores on Arch and even the increased traffic for Reading Terminal and things the locals hate like Hard Rock and the demand to convert the PSFS to a Loews... almost all of that can be traced back to getting the Convention Center initially.

I expect even more demand as the expansion took a lot of nasty open space that caused dead zones right next to City Hall. When I walked through there in the mid-90's you still had hookers working those blocks.

So in that sense it was multiple birds with one stone. It causes the Academy to build it's "close a street pocket park" across that many not have ever been done.

It also employed a couple thousand over the last couple of years. Places like Maggio's didn't put a store there for Chinatown.

SO I call it a huge win over letting all those lots sit there, as they used to be a great stomping grounds for hookers right up to when they demo'd the buildings.

I still blame Chinatown for dragging down this area as they artificially lower land values and fight all development near them. It's one reason why we've had so many open lots right up to today all around Chinatown. So the argument that the land the convention center sits on would have been something else... hogwash I'll point to all the land to the north and along the northern boundaries of Chinatown as at least 4-5 square blocks of open lots to the north.

If the land was worth more than parking it would be something. But if you try to build anything near Chinatown they fight it tooth and nail unless it fits their needs. Their needs are affordable housing in the core of a huge city so you have open lots right up to today. So thankfully the state just came in and took that control away from them.

No Convention Center and I'm sure you'd just have the open lots, none of the hotels, and a dying if not already close Reading Terminal. The Gallery would have been worse and you may not have had the slow shift west of Northern Liberites into the "Loft District" as the demand on NoLibs has slowly increased demand north of Chinatown where Chinatown can't control or stop growth increased.

Sadly to the north is large swaths of Projects that will always hurt residential demand at Broad and points east to No Libs.

Next step is to get those projects out of there as that area to the north of the Loft District is outside of Chinatown's control or pretty much anyone's "control" so if you can get the projects out I think you'll finally fill that hole from the city to Temple.

[eldondre]

The supermarket complex at Wilkie (between Vine ans Spring Garden) will do more to drag long term residents into the area.

I have to agree with this. the convention center isn't going to "save" north broad. projects like that simply make it a better place to live. All of a sudden 13th, ridge, and mt. vernon is one block from something...etc.

The Convention Center will increase land values and increase retail demand. It also removed a good deal of fallow land and abandoned buildings. THe hotel and the stores on Arch and even the increased traffic for Reading Terminal and things the locals hate like Hard Rock and the demand to convert the PSFS to a Loews... almost all of that can be traced back to getting the Convention Center initially.....
So in that sense it was multiple birds with one stone. It causes the Academy to build it's "close a street pocket park" across that many not have ever been done.
It also employed a couple thousand over the last couple of years. Places like Maggio's didn't put a store there for Chinatown...
I still blame Chinatown for dragging down this area as they artificially lower land values and fight all development near them. It's one reason why we've had so many open lots right up to today all around Chinatown. So the argument that the land the convention center sits on would have been something else... hogwash I'll point to all the land to the north and along the northern boundaries of Chinatown as at least 4-5 square blocks of open lots to the north.
If the land was worth more than parking it would be something. But if you try to build anything near Chinatown they fight it tooth and nail unless it fits their needs. Their needs are affordable housing in the core of a huge city so you have open lots right up to today. So thankfully the state just came in and took that control away from them.No Convention Center and I'm sure you'd just have the open lots, none of the hotels, and a dying if not already close Reading Terminal. The Gallery would have been worse and you may not have had the slow shift west of Northern Liberites into the "Loft District" as the demand on NoLibs has slowly increased demand north of Chinatown where Chinatown can't control or stop growth increased.

it's pure speculation that the terminal would be dying. the terminal was in desperate need of renovation as I understand it and the convention folks simply wanted to shut it down. the fact is, what the terminal does is back in fashion. anyways, we're talking about the expansion not the original convention center. certainly it will bring some demand but it's a stagnant market, Philadelphia probably has the best location right in the center of town, but also the worst labor problems. I think the best thing that will come out of this is the powers that be will have to pay attention to near north broad. hopefully address the worst block, the municipal services building, which is home mostly to homeless ata night. I walk by there on my way home and have encountered nervous tourists wondering what they'd gotten themselves into by walking around their hotel.that block is more important than dilworth IMO. anyway, you're first sentence nailed it...the rest is kind of tangential.
the Divine Lorraine site needs to be reused. It's been fun to watch fairmount ave rapidly change (most of the abandoned buildings are now owned by the sgcdc).

Sadly to the north is large swaths of Projects that will always hurt residential demand at Broad and points east to No Libs.

Next step is to get those projects out of there as that area to the north of the Loft District is outside of Chinatown's control or pretty much anyone's "control" so if you can get the projects out I think you'll finally fill that hole from the city to Temple.[/QUOTE]

[Insoluble]

The supermarket complex at Wilkie (between Vine ans Spring Garden) will do more to drag long term residents into the area.

Yes, we need to encourage more projects like this.

No Convention Center and I'm sure you'd just have the open lots, none of the hotels, and a dying if not already close Reading Terminal.

While I agree that the Convention Center has done a lot for the area (especially the hotels) and that the convention center crowd does provide a lot of business for the Reading Terminal Market, I don't think the RTM would have died without it. The RTM's resurgence began in the 80's, largely thanks to the Amish (at least according to this book this book). The Convention Center didn't open until the 90's from what i understand, by which time the R.T.M. was back on it's feet.

With the Convention Center expansion and the PAFA's new plaza being developed across the street, North Broad should see a little bit more life. Hopefully this will be a catalyst for more development. Unfortunately, the convention Center hasn't spurred much development along Market Street east of 11th Street. Maybe we'll have more luck with Broad. But there needs to be more done to encourage private development, especially North of Vine.

Sadly to the north is large swaths of Projects that will always hurt residential demand at Broad and points east to No Libs.

Agreed.

[mixiboi]

Market Street east of 11th Street just had a lot of bad luck. The Disney Quest failure is the tip of the iceburg for that area.

[desolate]

THing is that any resurgance isn't because of one isolated project.

The Convention Center spurred the hotels and renovations in the area. It was pretty desolate/crime ridden in the mid 90's prior to the initial construction.

The Expansion will most likely do the same thing. Reduce blight, remove vagrants, increase visitors, increase hotel demand, increase retail demand.

Having it reach Broad means many will now see Broad visiting who may have only wandered out to Market East.

The original Convention Center gave us the renovated headhouse and some attention to the RTM area and the tourists from said convention do help the RTM's bottom line.

No Convention Center... no Mariottt or Loews or the other couple warehouse renovations in the immediate area.

Imaging if the flower show was still over in University City or the Auto Show, two large events that bring Philadelphians into the city to spend. Most take Septa and many eat or at least walk around.

Now many make the argument for a stadium downtown for the same effects... but having the convention center brings almost a "wealthier" spending "trapped" crowd than a game would.

When your in town for a convention you do tend to stay put to the local area. That local area is Center City in the case of our convention center.

Expanding it can only mean more demand, more retail, and more people in the vicinity.

[eldondre]

even with the convention center, the city still had to subsidize hotels to come to town in 200 when we had the republican convention. while some hotels owe their existence to the convention center, some owe them to that period. the convention contributes to RTM's ongoing problem of food court vs market but as noted, it wasn't responsible for its resurgence. certainly it wil be better for north broad than the blocks of city acreage taht had been put on ice during the nearly two decades the expansion was talked about. If we can get a hotel at broad and race where the surface lot is, and someone to buy the old water revenue building north broad will be in good shape, IMO, but as for the rennaissance, more hinges on wilkie and blatsteins's tower development. spring garden continues to fill out with projects now infilling to 15th st. the projects will always depress the area but even those aren't nearly as bad as they once were. probably worse for development is the host of social services on east spring garden. IMO, ministry 300 should not be allowed to serve that much food to homeless without being able to accomodate them inside. that huge line of homeless is a real turnoff to that area.

[luchobucho]

Market Street east of 11th Street just had a lot of bad luck. The Disney Quest failure is the tip of the iceburg for that area.

Make 8th and Market look like this:



And the blocks to the west will fill in just fine.....I think.

[desolate]

Make 8th and Market look like this:



And the blocks to the west will fill in just fine.....I think.

Dundas Square had very, very similar conditions to our current 8th and Market.

Only difference here is that we have an insular ethnic enclave that want involvement on any project.

DUndas also had an image problem but Toronto has a wealthier population overall and had a large college population just due west.

[luchobucho]

Dundas Square had very, very similar conditions to our current 8th and Market.

Only difference here is that we have an insular ethnic enclave that want involvement on any project.

DUndas also had an image problem but Toronto has a wealthier population overall and had a large college population just due west.

I know. You're right on all points. I don't expect the same thing, but that PPA lot is ripe for something similar....atleast from a scale standpoint. There's enough room for a midrise building and a plaza on that lot. The burger king lot could be revamped as well to match the new "8th Street Square". I wouldn't touch the lit bro's or stawbridge buildigns at all....well maybe signs or something.

Toronto is a bigger city with better jobs, more affluent residents and probably a better overall educated populace. Even still, we're talking about a location directly in the core of our city. Has CCD every proposed any solution for this space??

[ZARK]

Make 8th and Market look like this:



And the blocks to the west will fill in just fine.....I think.

I don't know it kinda looks like, well, crap to me!! but what do I know.

[eldondre]

Dundas Square had very, very similar conditions to our current 8th and Market.

Only difference here is that we have an insular ethnic enclave that want involvement on any project.

DUndas also had an image problem but Toronto has a wealthier population overall and had a large college population just due west.

chinatown has nothing to do with 8th and market. yonge st (where dundas sq/eaton ctr is located) was once the city's main shopping drag. as the city spread out and shopping patterns changed (proliferation of local malls, online retailing, etc) the street fell on hard times. in an effort to reinvent the sagging retail corridor, then peppered with porn businesses and "bohemian stuff" they built the eaton center...with no street entrances. in turning it around, they simply opened the eaton center to ther street, even adding a few sidewalk cafe's, and created a public space with concerts, etc out of an underused plaza. chinatown has much less to do with market east than two other factors: toronto's city government actually dealing with the problem in a creative fashion, and rapid population and job growth in toronto. to this day there are porn businesses on the drag, but that hasn't stopped other businesses from setting up shop. interestingly, as it turns out, the forum on west market is owned by rappaport's estate...as I'm guesing much of the real estate near market east is.

[Hospitalitygirl]

chinatown has nothing to do with 8th and market. yonge st (where dundas sq/eaton ctr is located) was once the city's main shopping drag. as the city spread out and shopping patterns changed (proliferation of local malls, online retailing, etc) the street fell on hard times. in an effort to reinvent the sagging retail corridor, then peppered with porn businesses and "bohemian stuff" they built the eaton center...with no street entrances. in turning it around, they simply opened the eaton center to ther street, even adding a few sidewalk cafe's, and created a public space with concerts, etc out of an underused plaza. chinatown has much less to do with market east than two other factors: toronto's city government actually dealing with the problem in a creative fashion, and rapid population and job growth in toronto. to this day there are porn businesses on the drag, but that hasn't stopped other businesses from setting up shop. interestingly, as it turns out, the forum on west market is owned by rappaport's estate...as I'm guesing much of the real estate near market east is.

If Chinatown *really* has nothing to do with 8th & Market, then why were their demands and wishes listened to so closely when there was some movement to place a casino atop the Gallery?

[3rd&Brown]

I don't know it kinda looks like, well, crap to me!! but what do I know.

LOL. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I do think there is a place for something like this in most major cities. Hell, even Copenhagen, Denmark has something like this....

[eldondre]

If Chinatown *really* has nothing to do with 8th & Market, then why were their demands and wishes listened to so closely when there was some movement to place a casino atop the Gallery?

I believe the judge ruled that it couldn't move. moreover, there was a rebellion in the strawbridge's building from a current tenant. I'm not sure how much influence it actually had...they didn't have much say at any other location. maybe nothing it too strong, "little to do" might be better

[hammersklavier]

...the other tenant in the Strawbridge building being, ironically enough, the State.

I agree with you, el, that the issue with Market East is more a Gallery issue than anything else. Fixing up Eaton Centre so that it had street entrances did much more for the Yonge Street district than building the plaza did. (However, also note that Yonge continues to hold the flagships of Canada's two biggest department store chains, the Bay and Sears Canada).

AFAIK the large Broad and Race surface lot is a Hahnemann Hospital land bank. The best lots for major hotel development along North Broad are 1) either of Broad and Callowhill's south corners or 2) either of Broad and Spring Garden's north corners. The underbuilt stretches of Broad across from the old Met, and at Spring Garden, are also a possibility, but much more of a stretch.

A minor issue North Broad's resurgence will have to contend with is the Allen hole. While when it was first built, the greater land-coverage of tract housing was a strong rationale for preferring a suburban mode of design, changes in demand will necessitate a more creative solution (some of those homes, particularly the ones closest to Broad, are IIRC homeowner-owned; a resultant corollary is that densification might come about by interested parties purchasing side yards--particularly (given this is the Allen hole, after all) if said interested parties are minority-represented.

[mixiboi]

UPADTE: Convention Center numbers suggest expansion was a success | Philadelphia Inquirer | 07/03/2011

he first time, in other words, that the 20,500-member ISTE gathered at the much-enlarged Convention Center.

"The expansion made all the difference in the world, as far as giving us the flexibility to build the experience for attendees and have the kind of conference we wanted," said Don Knezek, chief executive officer of the Washington-based group.

So successful was its get-together, ISTE organizers said, that it will be back in 2015, putting Philadelphia on its four-year convention rotation with San Diego (2012); San Antonio, Texas (2013); and Atlanta (2014). ISTE filled 28,535 rooms during its four-day stay, worth $40.29 million in local impact.

For a midtier convention town that was never a heavy hitter in the eyes of meeting and trade-show planners, the coveted rotation spot is considered early affirmation that the Convention Center expansion - at $786 million the most costly public-works project in the state's history - is bearing fruit.

Its first simultaneous events - something impossible before the expansion - were the Philadelphia International Flower Show (March 6 to 13) in the old building and Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education (March 12 to 16) in the new building at 111 N. Broad St. The two drew more than a quarter-million people.

The three biggest conventions so far - the Association of periOperative Registered Nurses, Lightfair International, and ISTE - filled up all 44 Center City hotels, Ferguson said.

That underscored the need for 1,500 to 1,800 more rooms, he said, because several suburban hotels, such as the Holiday Inn in Cherry Hill, also benefited.

The American Transplant Congress, which is based in Mount Laurel, drew 5,000 participants and booked 15,547 hotel rooms over five days.

Although the group - physicians, surgeons, and transplant organizers - gathered mostly in the original portion of the Convention Center, Pam Ballinger, vice president of meetings and exhibits for association headquarters, said she liked how the buildings seamlessly connected and shared color schemes.

Something else caught Ballinger's attention: A member of the Laborers Union, unloading the group's show materials, thanked her for bringing business to Philadelphia.

"I have never had that in another city happen to me," Ballinger said. "It's indicative of how far we've come. The [city's] reputation has been is that labor has been difficult. I couldn't have found them to be more helpful and hospitable."

DEAD....

[eldondre]

hard to believe the inky considers itself a news source when they basicaly republish figures from biased sources

"The building is doing what it was designed to do, which was to create bigger numbers," said Jack Ferguson, president and CEO of the Convention and Visitors Bureau, which books the center

in the past, if you look through the thread, their figures are generally manipulated to prove their goals. perhaps more important to north broad is the fact the state approved a subsidy to build a hotel a the now vacant building next to the convention center.

[mixiboi]

hard to believe the inky considers itself a news source when they basicaly republish figures from biased sources

in the past, if you look through the thread, their figures are generally manipulated to prove their goals. perhaps more important to north broad is the fact the state approved a subsidy to build a hotel a the now vacant building next to the convention center.

Which is great..tho they did take my Dunkin Donuts away

[desolate]

hard to believe the inky considers itself a news source when they basicaly republish figures from biased sources

in the past, if you look through the thread, their figures are generally manipulated to prove their goals. perhaps more important to north broad is the fact the state approved a subsidy to build a hotel a the now vacant building next to the convention center.

They just published a car free article using the Bike Coalition's numbers.

Just becuase you don't like the Cnvnetion Center doesn't mean all the numbers are bunk.

Smae goes for me, as I hear the equivalent from the bikers all the time.

Truth is most likely in the middle.

Still, there's now THOUSANDS of people here in the icty that wouldn't have been without these conventions.