Strawberry Mansion revitalization

[green77]

The lower part of Strawberry Mansion still has some mostly intact blocks, but no block seems to have escaped major disrepair. What are the prospects for investment here, say south of Berks Street? Salvaging the John Coltrane house and stabilizing even up to Montgomery would be a great start. COmmunity Venture's project is bound to help stabilize it.
The access to the park is amazing, easy to get anywhere from there.
Any properties moving in that area?

[dcss1205]

I know people who bought between Poplar and Girard, and are still waiting. I know those who bought in parts of Francesville, some made out ok, not OK, others are still waiting.

Speculation is an interesting thing. You want a free market analysis. You would do better speaking to several realtors, and those who work SM as well as Sharswood and upper Brewerytown.

[Malloy]

If you drive/walk SM block by block, you will see it's one of the most devastated area in all of Philly. No convenient rail stops either. I think it will take ages to get better...

[the mule]

Strawberry Mansion isn't going to see any revitalization until northern Brewerytown has started to explode, and that's still a ways away. There are just too many negative pressures to the East and the North and absolutely no demand for unsubsidized development. Take a nice day in the summer and ride around Strawberry Mansion and ask yourself what you would pay to live there. By the end of your ride you'll be thinking of how much you would have to be paid instead.

Developers have been offered land and financing for virtually nothing to develop for sale housing there and have turned it down. I believe Community Ventures has sold all of their homes, but last I heard Friends Rehabilitation hasn't been able to sell their homes on 31st st (http://smtownhomes.com/), and they are heavily subsidized. Hell, there are section 8 rentals in some parts of the neighborhood that can't find tenants at any price.

It's a shame because it's right on Fairmount Park, home to some gorgeous buildings, and it's no mistake why that used to be one of the choice neighborhoods of the Philadelphia elite. Decades of neglect and decay have taken their toll. The best case scenario is that development in Brewerytown spreads on the western edge up into Strawberry Mansion and maybe development pushes its way south from East Falls to bridge the gap. The problem is that horrendous public housing plopped down in choice locations on 33rd St will always be an obstacle along that stretch.

[MM Partners]

Strawberry Mansion isn't going to see any revitalization until northern Brewerytown has started to explode.

Yes, Brewerytown will set the pace for Strawberry Mansion.

[MariusPontmercy]

Strawberry Mansion is shot through with public housing. There's a long chain of project housing starting at the giant project up on Diamond next to the NE corridor tracks that stretches all the way south and east until it gets to around 16th and Jefferson Sts or so. That's a huge drag on redeveloping the area. It's a shame because that neighborhood still has some incredible housing stock, and is sandwiched between development coming up from Center City and Temple, and has Fairmount Park on the other side. Probably Strawberry Mansion remains like the Richard Allen Hole: basically a big subsidized gap in the redevelopment going on around it and depressing the blocks immediately surrounding.

[green77]

Well, I'm not an investor, but thanks for your comments. The neighborhood clearly has sections that are completely collapsed, other blocks more viable with hard-working people, old and newer.

I know people who bought between Poplar and Girard, and are still waiting. I know those who bought in parts of Francesville, some made out ok, not OK, others are still waiting.

Speculation is an interesting thing. You want a free market analysis. You would do better speaking to several realtors, and those who work SM as well as Sharswood and upper Brewerytown.

[the mule]

Strawberry Mansion is shot through with public housing. There's a long chain of project housing starting at the giant project up on Diamond next to the NE corridor tracks that stretches all the way south and east until it gets to around 16th and Jefferson Sts or so. That's a huge drag on redeveloping the area. It's a shame because that neighborhood still has some incredible housing stock, and is sandwiched between development coming up from Center City and Temple, and has Fairmount Park on the other side. Probably Strawberry Mansion remains like the Richard Allen Hole: basically a big subsidized gap in the redevelopment going on around it and depressing the blocks immediately surrounding.

I'm not a fan of public housing, but that's not what's holding back SM right now. The massive swathes of vacant lots and dilapidated buildings easily outweigh any negative effect of public housing. The public housing will be an obstacle if and when SM starts to see a renaissance, but that's far off. Even then, only the PHA stuff is going to be the problem, just like Richard Allen, because it's going to be there FOREVER.

The subsidized homeownership projects from Community Ventures and Friends Rehab won't be much of an obstacle to development. Even though they're technically affordable houses, their prices (110-140k) still require buyers to be creditworthy enough to get a mortgage, so they attract a whole different type of resident than affordable rental. By the time development reaches that neighborhood the restrictions on those projects will have expired and those owners that want to cash out can, and those who want to stay and reap the rewards of the development around them can do that too.

[billy ross]

If you drive/walk SM block by block, you will see it's one of the most devastated area in all of Philly. No convenient rail stops either. I think it will take ages to get better...

I think that everyone here is far too pessimistic about Strawberry Mansion. Yes, it's very rough. However, it really does have an amazing location, for bikers, joggers, and drivers. Along the Schuylkill River the gentrification / increasing wealth has spread all the way from upper South Philly to Phoenixville, with only two gaps in between, Strawberry Mansion and Norristown, both of which are outliers, clearly. You're talking about a corridor with serious wealth. There were forces which caused the Mansion to get bad, but those forces have moved on, mostly, and now we're dealing with the inertia of 'it's bad because it's bad', without alot of logic behind it. All of those lots could easily become new construction, but it would take a spark to get things moving. Meanwhile, the area around Temple University has exploded; this lies to the east of Strawberry Mansion. Center City's long, slow march through Fairmount / 'the Art Museum Area' continues to grind north to Strawberry Mansion; I was just talking to a friend tonight who is trying to turn the 3000 blocks of Baltz and Stiles, and he's making great progress. East Falls' long, slow march reversing the decline along Ridge Avenue has made and continues to make great progress on the 4000 block of Ridge, and I feel ready to get things moving down to Clearfield (I've got two big and visible buildings near Ridge and Clearfield I expect to get done or at least well under way this year) . If you grant me that it'll be nice down to Clearfield shortly then after that we've only got 4 blocks or so to go until we hit Strawberry Mansion. If not then Ridge and Allegheny has become fairly pleasant of late and it's only 5 blocks from the Mansion. Finally on the west side of Strawberry Mansion Fairmount Park gets to be nicer and nicer and a more and more desirable neighbor every year.

With SM literally surrounded by energy and growth, it won't remain a wallflower forever. I am convinced that this decade will finally bring about the cleaning up of Market East, and that this decade will also be the decade of North Philly. South Philly is at the end stages of reversing the decline, without alot of room for growth unless there are wholesale teardowns and construction of condo buildings, which I don't expect to happen. The boundless energy of Center City has shown zero signs of jumping across the Delaware River, so that frontier too is unavailable to handle the growth pressures. Penn and Drexel are locked in a 'great game' struggle for land in West Philly contiguous to Center City, and by the time you get beyond those institutions the energy of Center City is just too far away. That leaves North Philly to absorb the growth from Center City, and North Philly has been on fire of late already. Northern Liberties is in North Philly. Fishtown is adjacent. The Loft District/Eraserhood is in North Philly. Temple's boundless growth is in North Philly. It's going to go river to river north of Vine. I can't say where it'll stop when, but it'll push north, just like it pushed south river to river from South Street. It doesn't take too much imagination to see what's going to happen, because it already is happening in North Philly and it already happened in South Philly. Maybe Strawberry Mansion will be a doppelganger for Point Breeze? All it will take is for the majority of the derelict houses to get rehabbed first, then a few developers to make money building new construction there, and then the floodgates will open. That's generally the order when you're dealing with a desolate area.

[green77]

The 33rd Street and Ridge frontage along the park and reservoir is critical-- south of Berks there is much less destruction and demolition, but there are only 1 or 2 blocks not impacted on lower 33rd Street. Between Berks and Lehigh there are huge gaps and little sense of cohesiveness. Making this whole would be a high priority IMO, starting below Berks. I agree that PHA is not the main problem here-- the big projects are way NE and across the NE corridor line, the 2 very small projects on 33rd at Diamond and Ridge (near Huntingdon) are hardly going to wreck the neighborhood forever.

I'm not a fan of public housing, but that's not what's holding back SM right now. The massive swathes of vacant lots and dilapidated buildings easily outweigh any negative effect of public housing. The public housing will be an obstacle if and when SM starts to see a renaissance, but that's far off. Even then, only the PHA stuff is going to be the problem, just like Richard Allen, because it's going to be there FOREVER.

The subsidized homeownership projects from Community Ventures and Friends Rehab won't be much of an obstacle to development. Even though they're technically affordable houses, their prices (110-140k) still require buyers to be creditworthy enough to get a mortgage, so they attract a whole different type of resident than affordable rental. By the time development reaches that neighborhood the restrictions on those projects will have expired and those owners that want to cash out can, and those who want to stay and reap the rewards of the development around them can do that too.

[MariusPontmercy]

I'm not a fan of public housing, but that's not what's holding back SM right now. The massive swathes of vacant lots and dilapidated buildings easily outweigh any negative effect of public housing. The public housing will be an obstacle if and when SM starts to see a renaissance, but that's far off. Even then, only the PHA stuff is going to be the problem, just like Richard Allen, because it's going to be there FOREVER.

The subsidized homeownership projects from Community Ventures and Friends Rehab won't be much of an obstacle to development. Even though they're technically affordable houses, their prices (110-140k) still require buyers to be creditworthy enough to get a mortgage, so they attract a whole different type of resident than affordable rental. By the time development reaches that neighborhood the restrictions on those projects will have expired and those owners that want to cash out can, and those who want to stay and reap the rewards of the development around them can do that too.

Thanks for clearing up what some of those were. I was under the impression that it was all PHA, so that's hopeful.

[chudclay]

I live at the 3200 block of W Oxford. Great neighbors, beautiful architecture and incredible access to many of Philadelphia's best qualities (the park)!

Live where you want to live. If you like the park, consider Strawberry Mansion.

If you over-read these blog-posts, you might become disillusioned. This said, I, as well as many other of my area buddies, would be happy to meet you for a coffee at Mugshots, or a beer at the North Star Bar.

Strawberry Mansion isn't going to see any revitalization until northern Brewerytown has started to explode, and that's still a ways away. There are just too many negative pressures to the East and the North and absolutely no demand for unsubsidized development. Take a nice day in the summer and ride around Strawberry Mansion and ask yourself what you would pay to live there. By the end of your ride you'll be thinking of how much you would have to be paid instead.

Developers have been offered land and financing for virtually nothing to develop for sale housing there and have turned it down. I believe Community Ventures has sold all of their homes, but last I heard Friends Rehabilitation hasn't been able to sell their homes on 31st st (http://smtownhomes.com/), and they are heavily subsidized. Hell, there are section 8 rentals in some parts of the neighborhood that can't find tenants at any price.

It's a shame because it's right on Fairmount Park, home to some gorgeous buildings, and it's no mistake why that used to be one of the choice neighborhoods of the Philadelphia elite. Decades of neglect and decay have taken their toll. The best case scenario is that development in Brewerytown spreads on the western edge up into Strawberry Mansion and maybe development pushes its way south from East Falls to bridge the gap. The problem is that horrendous public housing plopped down in choice locations on 33rd St will always be an obstacle along that stretch.

[dmun]

It also has to be said that "Strawberry Mansion" is perhaps the best neighborhood name anyone ever came up with.

[FKD19124]

supposedly there is or is going to be new housing near blaine elementary. I heard the neighborhood is up in arms about it.

The lower part of Strawberry Mansion still has some mostly intact blocks, but no block seems to have escaped major disrepair. What are the prospects for investment here, say south of Berks Street? Salvaging the John Coltrane house and stabilizing even up to Montgomery would be a great start. COmmunity Venture's project is bound to help stabilize it.
The access to the park is amazing, easy to get anywhere from there.
Any properties moving in that area?

[BarryG]

It also has to be said that "Strawberry Mansion" is perhaps the best neighborhood name anyone ever came up with.

I think that distinction belongs to Swampoodle.

[green77]

I remember there was controversy about possibly losing an active community garden with a kids program across from the school, last year some time. Does that have a connection to the housing you spoke of?

supposedly there is or is going to be new housing near blaine elementary. I heard the neighborhood is up in arms about it.

[FKD19124]

I don't think so. I think the new housing was a block or two from the school. The garden is still there. My wife teaches at blaine and has given seeds to the woman who cares for the garden.

I remember there was controversy about possibly losing an active community garden with a kids program across from the school, last year some time. Does that have a connection to the housing you spoke of?

[The Rox]

I think that everyone here is far too pessimistic about Strawberry Mansion. Yes, it's very rough. However, it really does have an amazing location, for bikers, joggers, and drivers. Along the Schuylkill River the gentrification / increasing wealth has spread all the way from upper South Philly to Phoenixville, with only two gaps in between, Strawberry Mansion and Norristown, both of which are outliers, clearly. You're talking about a corridor with serious wealth. There were forces which caused the Mansion to get bad, but those forces have moved on, mostly, and now we're dealing with the inertia of 'it's bad because it's bad', without alot of logic behind it. All of those lots could easily become new construction, but it would take a spark to get things moving. Meanwhile, the area around Temple University has exploded; this lies to the east of Strawberry Mansion. Center City's long, slow march through Fairmount / 'the Art Museum Area' continues to grind north to Strawberry Mansion; I was just talking to a friend tonight who is trying to turn the 3000 blocks of Baltz and Stiles, and he's making great progress. East Falls' long, slow march reversing the decline along Ridge Avenue has made and continues to make great progress on the 4000 block of Ridge, and I feel ready to get things moving down to Clearfield (I've got two big and visible buildings near Ridge and Clearfield I expect to get done or at least well under way this year) . If you grant me that it'll be nice down to Clearfield shortly then after that we've only got 4 blocks or so to go until we hit Strawberry Mansion. If not then Ridge and Allegheny has become fairly pleasant of late and it's only 5 blocks from the Mansion. Finally on the west side of Strawberry Mansion Fairmount Park gets to be nicer and nicer and a more and more desirable neighbor every year.

With SM literally surrounded by energy and growth, it won't remain a wallflower forever. I am convinced that this decade will finally bring about the cleaning up of Market East, and that this decade will also be the decade of North Philly. South Philly is at the end stages of reversing the decline, without alot of room for growth unless there are wholesale teardowns and construction of condo buildings, which I don't expect to happen. The boundless energy of Center City has shown zero signs of jumping across the Delaware River, so that frontier too is unavailable to handle the growth pressures. Penn and Drexel are locked in a 'great game' struggle for land in West Philly contiguous to Center City, and by the time you get beyond those institutions the energy of Center City is just too far away. That leaves North Philly to absorb the growth from Center City, and North Philly has been on fire of late already. Northern Liberties is in North Philly. Fishtown is adjacent. The Loft District/Eraserhood is in North Philly. Temple's boundless growth is in North Philly. It's going to go river to river north of Vine. I can't say where it'll stop when, but it'll push north, just like it pushed south river to river from South Street. It doesn't take too much imagination to see what's going to happen, because it already is happening in North Philly and it already happened in South Philly. Maybe Strawberry Mansion will be a doppelganger for Point Breeze? All it will take is for the majority of the derelict houses to get rehabbed first, then a few developers to make money building new construction there, and then the floodgates will open. That's generally the order when you're dealing with a desolate area.

Excellent points, BR.

SM will surely have its day in the sun, but that day will take a long time unless someone brings in a large project to this area; commercial or mixed-use, not residential. To redevelop this area house-by-house / lot-by-lot would take forever, even if there is spillover CC demand and the prices were reasonable.

So in order for things to move the way that most people want them to move (including SM residents) would be for someone to bring in a large scale project. It doesn't have to be The Piazza, but it has to have similar energy.

[the mule]

I think that everyone here is far too pessimistic about Strawberry Mansion. Yes, it's very rough. However, it really does have an amazing location, for bikers, joggers, and drivers. Along the Schuylkill River the gentrification / increasing wealth has spread all the way from upper South Philly to Phoenixville, with only two gaps in between, Strawberry Mansion and Norristown, both of which are outliers, clearly. You're talking about a corridor with serious wealth. There were forces which caused the Mansion to get bad, but those forces have moved on, mostly, and now we're dealing with the inertia of 'it's bad because it's bad', without alot of logic behind it. All of those lots could easily become new construction, but it would take a spark to get things moving. Meanwhile, the area around Temple University has exploded; this lies to the east of Strawberry Mansion. Center City's long, slow march through Fairmount / 'the Art Museum Area' continues to grind north to Strawberry Mansion; I was just talking to a friend tonight who is trying to turn the 3000 blocks of Baltz and Stiles, and he's making great progress. East Falls' long, slow march reversing the decline along Ridge Avenue has made and continues to make great progress on the 4000 block of Ridge, and I feel ready to get things moving down to Clearfield (I've got two big and visible buildings near Ridge and Clearfield I expect to get done or at least well under way this year) . If you grant me that it'll be nice down to Clearfield shortly then after that we've only got 4 blocks or so to go until we hit Strawberry Mansion. If not then Ridge and Allegheny has become fairly pleasant of late and it's only 5 blocks from the Mansion. Finally on the west side of Strawberry Mansion Fairmount Park gets to be nicer and nicer and a more and more desirable neighbor every year.

With SM literally surrounded by energy and growth, it won't remain a wallflower forever. I am convinced that this decade will finally bring about the cleaning up of Market East, and that this decade will also be the decade of North Philly. South Philly is at the end stages of reversing the decline, without alot of room for growth unless there are wholesale teardowns and construction of condo buildings, which I don't expect to happen. The boundless energy of Center City has shown zero signs of jumping across the Delaware River, so that frontier too is unavailable to handle the growth pressures. Penn and Drexel are locked in a 'great game' struggle for land in West Philly contiguous to Center City, and by the time you get beyond those institutions the energy of Center City is just too far away. That leaves North Philly to absorb the growth from Center City, and North Philly has been on fire of late already. Northern Liberties is in North Philly. Fishtown is adjacent. The Loft District/Eraserhood is in North Philly. Temple's boundless growth is in North Philly. It's going to go river to river north of Vine. I can't say where it'll stop when, but it'll push north, just like it pushed south river to river from South Street. It doesn't take too much imagination to see what's going to happen, because it already is happening in North Philly and it already happened in South Philly. Maybe Strawberry Mansion will be a doppelganger for Point Breeze? All it will take is for the majority of the derelict houses to get rehabbed first, then a few developers to make money building new construction there, and then the floodgates will open. That's generally the order when you're dealing with a desolate area.

Unfortunately the forces that destroyed SM are still around. There is open drug dealing and open carrying of firearms all over the place. Seriously, spend some time walking around the neighborhood, especially in the summer, and your view will not be so rosy. Pennrose was not able to rent out its massive houses on 32nd street even to people with Section 8 vouchers. Nobody wanted to live there, not at any price. There are some terrible pockets there that taint everything around them.

You've mentioned a bunch of neighborhoods that are currently seeing revitalization, and with the exception of NoLibs most of them still have plenty of capacity for development. SM just doesn't have the same kind of market dynamics as West Philly, South Philly, or any of near-North Philly that borders on Center City. It's on the edge of a wasteland to put it bluntly. Templetown's development is great, but it's been largely a student housing driven development. Students are transient residents and the first thing they do upon graduating is to high tail it out of North Philly. That doesn't leave much homeowner demand to spread west, which is what SM sorely needs if it is to improve.

I live at the 3200 block of W Oxford. Great neighbors, beautiful architecture and incredible access to many of Philadelphia's best qualities (the park)!

Live where you want to live. If you like the park, consider Strawberry Mansion.

If you over-read these blog-posts, you might become disillusioned. This said, I, as well as many other of my area buddies, would be happy to meet you for a coffee at Mugshots, or a beer at the North Star Bar.

I'm not basing my opinion of SM on blog posts, I'm basing it on time spent working in the neighborhood. Granted I haven't spent much time there in the past 2 years but nothing would lead me to believe there has been anything more than a marginal improvement. 32nd and Oxford is not bad but you're right at the edge of Brewerytown and SM and benefiting more from the rise of Brewerytown. North Star and Mugshots are firmly in solid Brewerytown. Poplar has been decent since the 80's.

I'm bullish on Brewerytown and am planning on moving there soon. It has the urban environment that I enjoy and it's right on the largest urban park in North America. City living with a green escape just steps away, it's an unbeatable combo. I think it has much more to offer than Kensington or Fishtown and it's only a matter of time before it reaches critical mass, but notwithstanding some unforeseen explosion in philly development beyond the current levels, it will take a decade to exhaust the supply of vacant property there. Until that happens SM is going to fester. NTI already gouged out much of its beautiful architecture, and over the next 10-15 years I can only imagine how much more will succumb to L&I-ordered demolition.

I always have to give a postscript to this and say that I hope I'm wrong. I spent parts of my early childhood around SM and frequently take detours through it to gaze in awe at the crumbling beautiful buildings, dreaming of its potential while simultaneously lamenting its current state. But my optimistic estimate for a turnaround is 15 years.

[heal2day]

I live in Strawberry Mansion and my neighbors are horrible. They're loud, trashy, and have too many block parties. They celebrate death, prom, graduation, weddings... The music plays loud 24/7. The people never sleep. People place their trash in front of abandon houses. One neighbor has a sound system in his back yard. Several people never clean their yards. There are tree 20 feet high. I can go on and on.