Neighborhood Meeting 6pm 12/7 Re Supermarket

**TeddyP27** · 12-05-2011, 10:29 AM

We got flyer-bombed yesterday with an announcement that Clarke, Greenlee, and Brownlee are hosting an informative meeting at the Celebration Center (27th and Girard) on Wednesday 12/7 at 6pm to discuss the supermarket at 31st and Girard. Can't wait for this!

Rumor has it the excavation samples revealed a grossly-intact foundation under the lot and there is concern that there may be tunnels and other hidden secrets underneath that could jeopardize construction. I would love to see how they spin this into something positive other than we get to enjoy a green space for a while longer!

**CityMaps** · 12-05-2011, 02:15 PM

Short notice.

**eldondre** · 12-05-2011, 02:21 PM

they found tunnels when they dug for btown sq. the breweries all had tunnels to the railroad tracks during prohibition. I've also heard that caves were dug for beer production in the really old days in that area

**3rd&Brown** · 12-05-2011, 02:30 PM

This has happened at a bunch of the jobsites around the old Ortliebs in Northern Liberties. Lots of underground tanks and storage vaults for beer. Sorta cool, but not sure how it's not expected at this point in these areas.

**6enny** · 12-05-2011, 02:34 PM

Is there any opposition to the supermarket? I'm reminded of the guy that came to a community meeting to protest some mural. Any chance that guy hates supermarkets too?

**raider.adam** · 12-05-2011, 02:45 PM

Yeah, the civics were never directly todl about this meeting. We found out about it today via word of mouth.

**Moonraker** · 12-05-2011, 02:54 PM

This Just In...
Community Meeting to Discuss Plans for Bottom Dollar Supermarket on Girard Avenue
Wednesday, December 7 at 6PM

Meeting Location: The Church at 27th Street & Girard Avenue

This will be a formal community presentation for the proposed Bottom Dollar Supermarket at 31st & Girard. Please come to see the plans and provide your input.

**Please Note: We apologize for the short notice, but we just received word.**

Join Our Mailing List!
Fairmount CDC
2401 Pennsylvania Avenue
Suite #1C-43
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19130

48+ hours is not short notice. In the real world, I get meeting notices 5 minutes after they started,

and I'm a contractual, mandatory participate.

Both the FCDC and the FCA are spreading the word.

**TeddyP27** · 12-05-2011, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by 6enny

Is there any opposition to the supermarket? I'm reminded of the guy that came to a community meeting to protest some mural. Any chance that guy hates supermarkets too?

There is a vocal minority in Brewerytown Square and a few in the adjacent blocks that doesn't want it there. Traffic, trucks, dumpsters, and delinquents are a concern. As long as its done thoughtfully I won't mind having it there!

**JakeL** · 12-05-2011, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by eldondre

they found tunnels when they dug for btown sq. the breweries all had tunnels to the railroad tracks during prohibition. I've also heard that caves were dug for beer production in the really old days in that area

I'm also surprised that they didn't think they'd uncover these things too. Like you mentioned, when they were creating Brewerytown Square they saw the same tunnels, see a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbiIKvyu170

The site has been in use since at least 1862, starting off as a hotel on the northwest corner

By 1875, J&P Baltz had moved in, housing part of their brewery on the parcel

You can see it continuing to get built up by 1910

However, by 1942, J&P was gone due to prohibition, replaced by REO Motor Company (REO Motor Car Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

**JakeL** · 12-05-2011, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by TeddyP27

There is a vocal minority in Brewerytown Square and a few in the adjacent blocks that doesn't want it there. Traffic, trucks, dumpsters, and delinquents are a concern. As long as its done thoughtfully I won't mind having it there!

There was a lot of concern around the delivery truck being able to make the turn onto 31st. However, this seems like a moot point, as it's only one delivery truck a day and I'm sure they'll figure out how to make it work.

If there's going to be a fight for something, I think it should be around the facade and/or creating a pedestrian crossing at the western side of the parcel, extending 32nd Street over the railroad tracks into Fairmount Park.

**raider.adam** · 12-05-2011, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by JakeL

If there's going to be a fight for something, I think it should be around ... creating a pedestrian crossing at the western side of the parcel, extending 32nd Street over the railroad tracks into Fairmount Park.

Not sure why that should be the supermarket's concern.

**TeddyP27** · 12-05-2011, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by JakeL

There was a lot of concern around the delivery truck being able to make the turn onto 31st. However, this seems like a moot point, as it's only one delivery truck a day and I'm sure they'll figure out how to make it work.

If there's going to be a fight for something, I think it should be around the facade and/or creating a pedestrian crossing at the western side of the parcel, extending 32nd Street over the railroad tracks into Fairmount Park.

We get those Allied Trucks in/out many times during the day. Shouldn't be an issue.

What they really need to do is finish the damned track project we were told would be done by the summer then plan for whatever pedestrian access to the park around that. Personally, I wouldn't mind if there wasn't access since a lot of the neighborhood kids cut over the tracks and often throw rocks at cars/houses without consequence thus far.

**JakeL** · 12-05-2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by raider.adam

Not sure why that should be the supermarket's concern.

The best Brewerytown to Fairmount Park connector may abut the supermarket property on the western side. Honestly, the connector to Fairmount Parks seems nearly impossible, as the Amtrak tracks run next to Brewerytown, as well as two spur lines. And as TeddyP mentioned, the area is already rife with issues such as kids throwing rocks and illegal dumping.

**CityMaps** · 12-05-2011, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by JakeL

I'm also surprised that they didn't think they'd uncover these things too.

We don't know that they didn't think they'd find that. We also don't know that this is what the meeting is to be about.

**JakeL** · 12-05-2011, 06:12 PM

While I was digging around, I also found this photo of the J&P Baltz building, along with the Bernger and Engle building from underneath the Girard Ave bridge. The B&E building looked particularly stunning, including a statue of St. Gambrinus.

Larger photo and more details can be found here

**JakeL** · 12-05-2011, 09:36 PM

And today, December 5, is Repeal Day, celebrating the repeal of Prohibition in the 30's. May we someday have a brewery here where we can celebrate.

**Moonraker** · 12-05-2011, 10:30 PM

The Pennrose Lofts, 3000 block of Thompson were once an Acme warehouse. How much traffic do you think it ran, and for how many shifts per week?
This area was an Industrial Zoned section, not Commercail, not residentail. Those real estate maps attest to the fact.
The comments about targeting Amfleet and SEPTA trains for stones is quite correct. Thanks to the FRA regulation of glass for the safety of the passengers. Another time, Another place, and Puff, the magic C47 would have handled those kids.

**CityMaps** · 12-07-2011, 06:48 PM

Quick recap from the presentation:

Good news if you want fresh food access in the neighborhood (it's probably coming within the next year)

Good news if you want a job in the neighborhood (50 full and part time jobs, mostly from the neighborhood)

Bad news if you care about urban design (disposable box behind a surface lot & with a long blank wall on 31st)

Mixed news if you are a fan of unions (union builders, non-union employees)

Hopefully RaiderAdam, Moonraker and the others can write more.

**JakeL** · 12-07-2011, 08:40 PM

Here's a photo of the site layout

Since the initial meeting in May, I've been a bit hesitant about the box store setup. However, thinking about it tonight, this is the best spot for a less-than-stunning big box store. It's got very limited frontage on Girard, meaning that the parking lot isn't going to create a large chasm in the storefronts.

From an urban design perspective, we would all desire sunken or rooftop parking, creating a grocery store frontage right on Girard. However, outside of Center City, the real estate prices don't command this requirement. Overall, I'm satisfied with the setup, given the limitations of the site, along with the lack of grocery store architectural variations. As was mentioned tonight, the 31st St side would be wonderful for a large mural.

I will gladly take the big-box look if it means that they'll be a grocery store in the neighborhood. Furthermore, with a national grocery chain choosing to set up shop on Girard, this may be a good catalyst for future development.

**raider.adam** · 12-07-2011, 09:03 PM

Could it be better? Yeah, but it isn't all that far from the best we are going to get.

It has nothing to do about the design, but what I found interesting were the repeated questions about a pharmacy. I mentioned to one person we have a pharmacy on Girard and they said "but like a walgreens or CVS". I was still confused.