New Nuclear Power that's even cheaper than Coal: Thorium reactors

[MayfairMeat]

We've actually built these reactors, they produce less than 1% of the volume of waste products that 3 Mile Island produces, it's way less radioactive [preferred design uses Uranium-233 instead of Uranium-235]. Zero carbon emissions. The heat and chemical process in a Thorium-based reactor can actually be used to produce clean fuel for cars.


The United States also has HUGE reserves of Thorium already available, as does India and Australia where most of the rest of it is found.


Estimated cost is $0.03/kWh.
YouTube - Aim High: Using Thorium Energy to Address Environmental Prob

[MayfairMeat]

Before you get scared about Thorium... it's everywhere:

Thorium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The natural Thorium pulled out of the ground is radioactive, but the half-life is incredibly long and radioactivity can't penetrate the skin. The radon gas that might be in your house is way more dangerous than solid naturally-occurring Thorium.


If you're a welder, you're already exposed to thorium compounds every day you kick up the spark:
Pictures, stories, and facts about the element Thorium in the Periodic Table

In these arc welding rods, the thorium/tungsten oxide is colored red:

[Polar Cub]

No wonder your hair looks like that !!

[Polar Cub]

Jokes aside, it is a solution.
I heard it can even be used to rid ourselves of unwanted radioactive materials. It burns the crap right up when mixed.

[phillyaggie]

India has been working on the Thorium cycle almost from the get go when it started looking at nuclear power back in the 1950s. India has one of the world's largest reserves of it that can last it 2,500 years, if it can only figure out how to use that energy source.

Cheap or expensive really is subjective. India has found Thorium reprocessing cycle to be fairly expensive and so it has gone the route of Uranium.

KAMINI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India's three stage nuclear power programme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Still, India is one of the few countries that is continuing to develop technologies to use the thorium cycle. It's pretty damn complex and all the technology denial regimes against India over the past 30+ years has hindered progress, though now with the U.S.-India nuclear cooperation finally happening, we might actually go places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_breeder_reactor#India

[Mr Morley]

I'm all for nuclear power, but we have to get a permanent waste-storage system worked out; right now our nuclear waste is sitting in temporary pools on-site at power plants and it's huge target for terrorists or even just accidents or stupidity.

[NE19149]

Oh heck, I gotz one of them there things in my basement... it powers my pleasure toys.

[Mr Morley]

Oh heck, I gotz one of them there things in my basement... it powers my pleasure toys.

Are you this guy?



The radioactive Boy Scout

[Jayfar]

Are you this guy?



The radioactive Boy Scout

Wow! Just wow! Gives real meaning to the phrase "Do not try this at home."

[Sailaway]

I believe U.S. law prohibits any kind of breeder reactor, for arms-control reasons. So, there's quite a political and legal hurdle to remain over thorium-cycle reactors.

[MayfairMeat]

Jokes aside, it is a solution.
I heard it can even be used to rid ourselves of unwanted radioactive materials. It burns the crap right up when mixed.

Yes one of the fuel sources is waste from your normal light water reactors (like 3 Mile).

[phillyaggie]

I believe U.S. law prohibits any kind of breeder reactor, for arms-control reasons. So, there's quite a political and legal hurdle to remain over thorium-cycle reactors.

I don't know if there is a formal law, but an executive order by Carter to halt plutonium reprocessing until some future time.

As one of the early acts of his Administration, President Carter in April 1977 issued a statement on nuclear policy that began with a commitment to defer indefinitely the commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium. The history of the past twenty years has dramatically demonstrated the wisdom of this policy and underscored the need to continue on this course for the foreseeable future.

On the basis of more realistic estimates of uranium reserves and the capital costs involved in plutonium reprocessing, the study concluded that "there is no compelling reason at this time to introduce plutonium or to anticipate its introduction in this century." Since the dangers associated with the plutonium economy, in particular proliferation of nuclear weapons, were seen as far outweighing any possible economic benefit under the most optimistic assumptions for reprocessing the study recommended that a clear cut decision be made "to defer indefinitely commercial reprocessing of plutonium." Such a positive decision to defer was seen as having a major influence on the decisions of other countries to pursue reprocessing while a decision to go ahead would accelerate international interest in the dangerous plutonium fuel cycle. Consequently, the study, recommended that the government not take over or subsidize the Barnwell plutonium reprocessing facility which undertaken as a commercial venture and was in serious economic and technical troubles.

FRONTLINE: nuclear reaction: Plutonium Reprocessing

[raider.adam]

I don't know if there is a formal law, but an executive order by Carter to halt plutonium reprocessing until some future time.

If I recall, Reagan revoked it. The problem isn't the ability to reprocess fuel. The problem is that united States hasn't even built a traditional reactor in decades.

But yes, I am a big fan of the breeder reactors.

[hammersklavier]

So long as they're built far, far away from anything...

[MayfairMeat]

So long as they're built far, far away from anything...

Actually, the new theoretical designs for Thorium reactors would make them safe enough to be located within a city, and they would be just as hazardous as your own local hospital and cancer treatment center, which most big hospitals already have a dizzying array of radioactive products on site.


That would never happen though given the fear and misunderstanding of what radioactivity is, and that "radiation" is an immensely broad term that's non-descriptive.

Laypeople can't tell the difference in toxicity between radioactive Strontium-90 particles which are deadly verses EM radiation which you're bathed in your entire life.

[rickmaltese]

One very important factor in all of this is that India has never used the MSR to take the full advantage of Thorium as a fuel. That is the only way to get the performance that ___ mentioned

[hammersklavier]

Actually, the new theoretical designs for Thorium reactors would make them safe enough to be located within a city, and they would be just as hazardous as your own local hospital and cancer treatment center, which most big hospitals already have a dizzying array of radioactive products on site.


That would never happen though given the fear and misunderstanding of what radioactivity is, and that "radiation" is an immensely broad term that's non-descriptive.

Laypeople can't tell the difference in toxicity between radioactive Strontium-90 particles which are deadly verses EM radiation which you're bathed in your entire life.

Well yeah, it's the beta and gamma rays that are the dangerous ones, right? Traditional uranium power gives off alpha, beta, and gamma radiation which is what makes it so dangerous in an urban environment.

[phillyaggie]

One very important factor in all of this is that India has never used the MSR to take the full advantage of Thorium as a fuel. That is the only way to get the performance that ___ mentioned

The only reason I can think of in this regard is technology denial in terms of design reviews, and export control regimes for highly engineered parts. While Indian heavy industry has grown over the years, it likely still doesn't have the capability to design and fabricate an entire new nuclear reactor design without foreign help. It couldn't even properly design the H-bomb as can be seen in the 1998 tests when the fission trigger probably didn't work to the full effect, perhaps because the angled encasing might not have done its job.

Of course, the whole international Nuclear Suppliers Group regime was put up precisely to deny technological assistance after India's first test in 1974. It was quite effective also in the missile development as well as the development of an indigenous fighter aircraft (the LCA)-- whose engine is still undergoing development, and ironically, now will likely use a GE engine.


But all this is past, and a new era of cooperation can potentially yield dividends.

[Sailaway]

Well yeah, it's the beta and gamma rays that are the dangerous ones, right? Traditional uranium power gives off alpha, beta, and gamma radiation which is what makes it so dangerous in an urban environment.

Penetrability is key. alpha rays can be stopped by a sheet of paper. They are merely helium nuclei. beta rays aren't much more penetrative. Gamma rays are high-energy photons,and even they can be stopped by a fairly thin shield of lead or a thicker shield of concrete.

[NE19149]

It sounds like Mr. Periwinkle's chemistry class in here!