City Council Already Working to Gut Major Provisions of New Zoning Code

[NickFromGtown]

How can they in good conscience change any of this bill considering IT WAS JUST APPROVED???

Is this a done deal?

[Hospitalitygirl]

So you think grocery stores should be required by zoning to have more parking than they themselves want?

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with.

Me? I am merely disagreeing with the notion that a supermarket should have no parking because of the stupid dense urban area argument. Both supermarkets on South St have parking and are usually full of shoppers. You need at least some parking. And ask the shoppers of Trader Joe's how annoyed they are sometimes because of that tiny lot. It caused me to stop going there.

[NickFromGtown]

Me? I am merely disagreeing with the notion that a supermarket should have no parking because of the stupid dense urban area argument. Both supermarkets on South St have parking and are usually full of shoppers. You need at least some parking. And ask the shoppers of Trader Joe's how annoyed they are sometimes because of that tiny lot. It caused me to stop going there.

So do we really think that supermarkets (who have razor-thin margins) are going to do such little market research that they are going to be building new stores without parking to please their customer base? I mean, a parking minimum does not mean a parking ban.

[seand]

In many cities the way they get new grocery stores to fit in urban areas is with parking above (like Fresh Grocer in U City or South Street Whole Foods) but then residential on top of that. Actually its a model I wish was used more in Philadelphia, particularly at major transit intersections.

[raider.adam]

So you think grocery stores should be required by zoning to have more parking than they themselves want?

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with.

Bottom Dollar wasn't brought up because of parking minimums, but because someone complained about the design of having a parking lot.

[eldondre]

Bottom Dollar wasn't brought up because of parking minimums, but because someone complained about the design of having a parking lot.

your sentence doesn't make sense. the design of having a parking lot? those are two separate issues. the design OF the parking lot, or the problem of having a parking lot. the design of a parking lot isn't rocket science, you don't need your typical suburban setback from the street, they can be put behind, put on top. some people make like it's some huge deal but as sean points out, it's commonplace.

[seand]

Bottom Dollar wasn't brought up because of parking minimums, but because someone complained about the design of having a parking lot.

Maybe I missed that. All I got out of the post was grumbling about it being too down-market and not matching their discerning tastes. On the other hand I have had neighbors complain about anything other than more parking lots for commercial corridors in parts of West Philly with 40% - 50% commercial abandonment - which is freakin' ridiculous.

No jobs. No tax base and you have to drive out to the burbs to buy anything but at least we have parking.

[y.lama]

it's being proposed by Brian O'Neil from the NE, are there a lot of parcels in his district that this will affect?
Bill would increase parking requirements, decrease density standards in multifamily districts | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

Maybe this is the right place to say this maybe it isn't, but I think both the NE and the rest of the city would benefit if they were separated into two municipalities.

[raider.adam]

your sentence doesn't make sense. the design of having a parking lot? those are two separate issues. the design OF the parking lot, or the problem of having a parking lot. the design of a parking lot isn't rocket science, you don't need your typical suburban setback from the street, they can be put behind, put on top. some people make like it's some huge deal but as sean points out, it's commonplace.

The available parcel has been looked at different permutations. Putting the store on Girard and the parking behind it wasn't feasible as a layout. Putting parking on top significantly raises the cost fo construction.

The store wasn't put where it was because of a "typical suburban setback". It was put there because of the irregular parcel. And for the record, they are planning to put a commercial piece on that small piece of land fronting Girard.

it's being proposed by Brian O'Neil from the NE, are there a lot of parcels in his district that this will affect?
Bill would increase parking requirements, decrease density standards in multifamily districts | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

Maybe this is the right place to say this maybe it isn't, but I think both the NE and the rest of the city would benefit if they were separated into two municipalities.

City Hall has been making a great case that the consolidated county has been a failure and they should break the City back up into multiple townships in Philadelphia county.

[seand]

Actually part of my point was that in other cities store at street level, parking above and residential above that is a recipe that makes the parking on top work financially. And would also require special zoning variances, even under the new code, to the best of my knowledge. I.E. parking on top's higher cost is defrayed by residential above that.

[raider.adam]

Actually part of my point was that in other cities store at street level, parking above and residential above that is a recipe that makes the parking on top work financially. And would also require special zoning variances, even under the new code, to the best of my knowledge. I.E. parking on top's higher cost is defrayed by residential above that.

Sure, but that wasn't a scenario that was likely going to happen in Brewerytown. Some grand design was never going to take place on that piece of land. If they got a grocery store, it was going to be a box grocery store. The only people who thought otherwise were people who weren't going to put up money to actually do it.

[ShoshTrvls]

your sentence doesn't make sense. the design of having a parking lot? those are two separate issues. the design OF the parking lot, or the problem of having a parking lot. the design of a parking lot isn't rocket science, you don't need your typical suburban setback from the street, they can be put behind, put on top. some people make like it's some huge deal but as sean points out, it's commonplace.

A parking structure -- no matter how simple or cookie-cutter it might seem -- is not so easy to design. And it costs a fortune over street parking. In Philadelphia, the cost of EACH space in a structured parking garage is over $18,000 when you include land, engineering, and construction.* Plus about $500 PER SPACE annual maintenance. Lot parking is, obviously, infinitely less expensive.

*Needless to say, and consistent with other threads we've had, Philly's cost per space is the highest in the country with the exception of NYC. Thank you Building and Trades for that.

[MarketStEl]

it's being proposed by Brian O'Neil from the NE, are there a lot of parcels in his district that this will affect?
Bill would increase parking requirements, decrease density standards in multifamily districts | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

Maybe this is the right place to say this maybe it isn't, but I think both the NE and the rest of the city would benefit if they were separated into two municipalities.

Mark Alan Hughes - ex-Penn prof, now writing regularly at Next American City - devoted a whole bunch of columns he wrote for the Daily News to the subject he labeled "Undo 1854."

That said, I think O'Neill's bill misguided, short-sighted, and way too early. Just about every witness who testified on it at the Council hearing opposed it, and opposed it vehemently. One of them started this very thread, in fact.

I'm tempted to label it "The Civic Association Zoning Committee and District Councilmember Relief Act of 2012." The whole point of the zoning code revision was to reduce the need for variances. In most of the city, the changes O'Neill's bill inserts into the two zoning categories it affects will return them to the old code levels. If he is worried that the Northeast will become too dense as a result of the new changes (and I wonder how strong that worry is, given that the bill keeps the new, denser specs in the new CMX2.5 category, which the code has applied to Castor Avenue's not-so-dense commercial district), then let him suggest rezoning the plots in this area that are currently zoned RM1 and CMX2.

I'll have more to say on this on the RE Blog. Stay tuned.

[Dave]

So do we really think that supermarkets (who have razor-thin margins) are going to do such little market research that they are going to be building new stores without parking to please their customer base? I mean, a parking minimum does not mean a parking ban.

Huh?

[MarketStEl]

As I promised...

The Civic Association Zoning Committee and District Councilmember Relief Act of 2012 | Philadelphia Real Estate Blog

[ArcticSplash]

Same here. This bill illustrates how useless O'Neill is in City Council. I went ahead and just put a direct attack where it's deserved.

Councilman O'Neill Trying To Win "Useless Councilmember of the Year" Award - Philadelinquency

[Dave]

I sent an email to the following addresses stating that I oppose bill 120656, along with a link to the bill (http://legislation.phila.gov/attachments/13523.pdf).

To: "darrell.clarke@phila.gov" <darrell.clarke@phila.gov>,
"mark.squilla@phila.gov" <mark.squilla@phila.gov>,
"michael.decker@phila.gov" <michael.decker@phila.gov>,
"jannie.l.blackwell@phila.gov" <jannie.l.blackwell@phila.gov>,
"curtis.jones.jr@phila.gov" <curtis.jones.jr@phila.gov>,
"bobby.henon@phila.gov" <bobby.henon@phila.gov>,
"Maria.Q.Sanchez@phila.gov" <Maria.Q.Sanchez@phila.gov>,
"cindy.bass@phila.gov" <cindy.bass@phila.gov>,
"marian.tasco@phila.gov" <marian.tasco@phila.gov>,
"brian.o'neill@phila.gov" <brian.o'neill@phila.gov>,
"wilson.goode@phila.gov" <wilson.goode@phila.gov>,
"Bill.Greenlee@phila.gov" <Bill.Greenlee@phila.gov>,
"bill.green@phila.gov" <bill.green@phila.gov>,
"phil.innamorato@phila.gov" <phil.innamorato@phila.gov>,
"james.kenney@phila.gov" <james.kenney@phila.gov>,
"blondell.reynolds.brown@phila.gov" <blondell.reynolds.brown@phila.gov>
Cc: "baerj@phillynews.com" <baerj@phillynews.com>,
"phillyclout@phillynews.com" <phillyclout@phillynews.com>,
"mbhill@phillynews.com" <mbhill@phillynews.com>,
"tgraham@phillynews.com" <tgraham@phillynews.com>,
"warnerb@phillynews.com" <warnerb@phillynews.com>,
"michael.nutter@phila.gov" <michael.nutter@phila.gov>

[AbortedWalrus]

I will do the same. This is just absolutely ridiculous.

[ArcticSplash]

BTW don't use Change.org---the City now blocks email coming in from change.org's servers. If you do a Change.org petition, you should print up the printed copy of the petition with all the signees on it and send it certified mail to all 17 members of City Council to ensure their offices get them. Their fax numbers don't always all work.

[Dave]

BTW don't use Change.org---the City now blocks email coming in from change.org's servers. If you do a Change.org petition, you should print up the printed copy of the petition with all the signees on it and send it certified mail to all 17 members of City Council to ensure their offices get them. Their fax numbers don't always all work.

They also no longer list email addresses on phila.gov (that I could find). I got those addresses from the sticky thread in the Politics section.