Revising strategies on Delaware waterfront

**Insoluble** · 06-14-2011, 05:15 PM

I'm surprised no one has commented about this yet. This past weekend Inga wrote a fluff piece about the new plans for the Delaware River waterfront:

Revising strategies on Delaware waterfront - Philly.com

On the plus side, it seems more realistic than some previous plans. It sounds like they won't be extending the cap over I95 to encompass all or most of center city, which is too bad since that seems to be one of the major psychological barriers that prevents people from using the waterfront. Other than that, it looks like a bunch of parks that I can only assume will be poorly maintained. I'm not holding my breath that any of this is going to happen though.

**Voodoo** · 06-14-2011, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Insoluble

I'm surprised no one has commented about this yet. This past weekend Inga wrote a fluff piece...

If it's a "fluff piece" why are you talking about it?
If it's a "fluff piece" why are you surprised no one else has commented about it?
I thought fluff pieces were to be ignored because they were... well... fluff pieces.

**Dayman** · 06-14-2011, 11:29 PM

You need to either bury 95 or make it easy to walk across Delaware Ave. There needs to be SH!T TO DO ON THE WATERFRONT TOO.

MUSEUMS AND BOATS ARE NOT ENOUGH YOU NEED RESTAURANTS AND SHOPS.

I mean I'm a boat nerd and even I get bored after the 10th boring as hell unoriginal typical 25 foot egg shaped boat.

HEY MY BOAT HAS SH!TTY ISINGLASS TO PUT UP WHEN IT RAINS BUT ITS ALL MOLDY CAN'T SEE LETS GO O THE WATERFRONT AND DO NOTHING.

Also, the bathroom by the Great Plaza on Chestnut street is like taking a plunge into the sewers of 3rd century Rome.

At least I see people using the new pier though.

**Dayman** · 06-14-2011, 11:35 PM

Oh and while I'm ranting,

Dear Harbormaster/Docksturmfuhrer at Penn's Landing,
when we go and patrol the little area where the olympia and moshulu are, we ARENT GOING TO RUN OVER YOUR LITTLE SWAN BOATS BECAUSE WE HAVE NO WAKE AND ARE THE COAST GUARD I CAN RESCUE YOUR ASS SO QUICK YOU'LL BE DRY BY THE TIME YOUR REALIZE IT.
Regards,
Dan from PA.

**Insoluble** · 06-15-2011, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Voodoo

If it's a "fluff piece" why are you talking about it?
If it's a "fluff piece" why are you surprised no one else has commented about it?
I thought fluff pieces were to be ignored because they were... well... fluff pieces.

Look, I know it's cool and all to act like you have a huge chip on your shoulder, but seriously? Just in case you were actually interested and weren't just posting something to draw attention to yourself, the article is mostly devoid of meaningful content, but I posted this anyway because the topic of the city's new plans for the Delaware usually generates some interest on this forum.

Originally Posted by Dayman

You need to either bury 95 or make it easy to walk across Delaware Ave. There needs to be SH!T TO DO ON THE WATERFRONT TOO.

Yeah, that's why I'm worried that the new plan seems to focus mostly on creating new designer parks. Hopefully when the full plan is made available it will adress the issue of attracting private development more clearly.

**Alley** · 06-15-2011, 09:37 AM

I was also surprised no one commented on the Delaware Waterfront. Monday night I attended the meeting at Festival Pier. The meeting would have been a lot shorter if they were not all patting each other on the back thanking each other and clapping! I'm not sure exactly what to think about the plan. I moved to Old City 3 1/2 years ago. The Penns Landing/Delaware River area was not a deciding factor. To be honest I'm surprised how much I use the area now for running. It really is beautiful. Prior to moving I never even knew about Penn Treaty Park. The Delaware River Trail is getting better although you don't go back there alone well I don't. It would be nice to see some more retail at least in the Penns Landing area. A new convenience store recently opened which I am sure will do great. The guy that works there in the morning is really pleasant. Now if OC coffee would open a location around there that would be great!

**y.lama** · 06-15-2011, 10:53 AM

anyone know a ballpark price to make 95 continuously capped from Chestnut to Delancey (i.e. fill in fom Dock to halfway b/w Chestnut and Walnut)? If they did cap and assuming the cap is not strong enough for structures I would like to see basketball courts, street hockey rink...etc. there. Something that would draw people. The parks on there now are very nice but just like the parks above the Big Dig are not a big draw.

**kidphilly** · 06-15-2011, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by y.lama

anyone know a ballpark price to make 95 continuously capped from Chestnut to Delancey (i.e. fill in fom Dock to halfway b/w Chestnut and Walnut)? If they did cap and assuming the cap is not strong enough for structures I would like to see basketball courts, street hockey rink...etc. there. Something that would draw people. The parks on there now are very nice but just like the parks above the Big Dig are not a big draw.

the beauty of the space above the big dig is that the neighborhoods now flow. They also do not have the grade differential as is on 95 to the waterfront.

But I believe I read that it could be capped and would be strong enough for some development. An additional thing on this space is that it is much wider than the big dig area, which could be good and bad but may open more opportunities.

I am curious to see the plan and without linking this space and getting stuff there it will continue to be kind of what it is now, hardly used.

I do actually like the grid/neighborhood aspect; toned down and fits with Philly and ultimately a neighborhood would start to be a draw in and of itself.

I also like the image (understandingit is a concept) of the large lawn space that could be used as both park/green space and double as a congregation point for concerts/movies etc. Looks like a bigger greener piazza and think in concept would be a good idea for the area. park/congregation space/neighborhood all in one...

**gren** · 06-15-2011, 11:38 AM

DRWC Master Plan Summary

I think you're talking about that? I think that's a nice cap which connects Center City to the waterfront. The current cap South of Chestnut is useless for connectivity... which I think is a more important use for a cap than anything.

Key to the plan is building stuff out by the water. They have to make sure they get densities of residences and businesses out there to make it useful. I really hope their future RfP on the Festival Pier will yield something good. And it's an ideal place since it's so close to the MFL.

**kidphilly** · 06-15-2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by gren

DRWC Master Plan Summary

I think you're talking about that? I think that's a nice cap which connects Center City to the waterfront. The current cap South of Chestnut is useless for connectivity... which I think is a more important use for a cap than anything.

Key to the plan is building stuff out by the water. They have to make sure they get densities of residences and businesses out there to make it useful. I really hope their future RfP on the Festival Pier will yield something good. And it's an ideal place since it's so close to the MFL.

Agree and I hope this area specifically has some residential; without I fear the space will be barren on non events and evenings

But on the image the area appears to be much more cohesive in the way i connects to the opposite sides of 95

I will als be interested to see how Market and Chestnut flow in - being able to get a cab in this area would do wonders if there is restaurants/cafes and how this flows for the pedestrian and auto coupled with MFL access will be interesting to see.

The image seems odd in that it doesnt appear to show Delaware ave, and where would the proposed light rial line come through, if it is decked, in theory a LR stop could be placed closer to the MFL station and still in striking distance of the waterfront.

**Sharkfood** · 06-15-2011, 12:13 PM

The most interesting proposal, which no one has commented on, is the capping of Delaware Avenue to create that great lawn. Even if you capped I-95 from Market to South, you still
have the issue of getting across Delaware Ave. and the fact that once you cross there is not
much space left for the river. The capping of Delaware Avenue solves both problems.

**kidphilly** · 06-15-2011, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sharkfood

The most interesting proposal, which no one has commented on, is the capping of Delaware Avenue to create that great lawn. Even if you capped I-95 from Market to South, you still
have the issue of getting across Delaware Ave. and the fact that once you cross there is not
much space left for the river. The capping of Delaware Avenue solves both problems.

In the image above it appears that DE Ave is also capped which is likely a good thing to your point

**y.lama** · 06-15-2011, 12:21 PM

the picture on page 50 shows it better with respect to 95 and Del Ave
http://www.delawareriverwaterfrontco...port110609.pdf

**gren** · 06-15-2011, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Agree and I hope this area specifically has some residential; without I fear the space will be bareen on non events and evenings

But on the image the area appears to be much more cohesive in the way i connects to the opposite sides of 95

I will als be interested to see how Market and Chestnut flow in - being able to get a cab in this area would do wonders if there is restaurants/cafes and how this flows for the pedestrian and auto coupled with MFL access will be interesting to see.

The image seems odd in that it doesnt appear to show Delaware ave, and where would the proposed light rial line come through, if it is decked, in theory a LR stop could be placed closer to the MFL station and still in striking distance of the waterfront.

Yeah, if you read the plan DRWC Master Plan Summary you'll see that they call for residential with commercial businesses (restaurants, stores, etc.) all along the riverfront. I think generally it's a great vision for the waterfront. I would question the lack of commercial space except I think there's plenty of places inland for that (and I think midrise commercial nearer to 95 would be great especially since a glass cube with good windows won't be as adversely affected by the noise. And I think maybe they could scale back their park plans. There probably don't need to be as many. I believe that Philadelphia--or at least most areas of it--don't suffer from a lack of parks. It suffers more from poorly used, poorly kept parks. So I completely agree, we should be upping density and worrying about making good use of our public space and having nice, tree lined connections. That's what great Europeans cities do. I'd be surprised if Paris had more park than most of our central neighborhoods. They just make utilitarian public rights of way seem like parks whereas we make them feel like highways.

**desolate** · 06-15-2011, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by y.lama

anyone know a ballpark price to make 95 continuously capped from Chestnut to Delancey (i.e. fill in fom Dock to halfway b/w Chestnut and Walnut)? If they did cap and assuming the cap is not strong enough for structures I would like to see basketball courts, street hockey rink...etc. there. Something that would draw people. The parks on there now are very nice but just like the parks above the Big Dig are not a big draw.

SO why would more parks fix any of that?

Because they would connect with the parks no one uses now across from the caps no one visits along the park no one uses next to Society Hill which no one lingers around?

**desolate** · 06-15-2011, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by gren

Yeah, if you read the plan DRWC Master Plan Summary you'll see that they call for residential with commercial businesses (restaurants, stores, etc.) all along the riverfront. I think generally it's a great vision for the waterfront. I would question the lack of commercial space except I think there's plenty of places inland for that (and I think midrise commercial nearer to 95 would be great especially since a glass cube with good windows won't be as adversely affected by the noise. And I think maybe they could scale back their park plans. There probably don't need to be as many. I believe that Philadelphia--or at least most areas of it--don't suffer from a lack of parks. It suffers more from poorly used, poorly kept parks. So I completely agree, we should be upping density and worrying about making good use of our public space and having nice, tree lined connections. That's what great Europeans cities do. I'd be surprised if Paris had more park than most of our central neighborhoods. They just make utilitarian public rights of way seem like parks whereas we make them feel like highways.

Realistically,

How much public money will be spent so a few lucky people can live along the waterfront?

What's the ROI on the public funds?

Recalling that the view of Camden is quite ****ty and there is already a massive concert/park thing there that is lightly used.

WHy would a couple medium sized residen... (there are already residential buildings, on the piers, their now).. change this?

**gren** · 06-15-2011, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by desolate

Realistically,

How much public money will be spent so a few lucky people can live along the waterfront?

What's the ROI on the public funds?

Recalling that the view of Camden is quite ****ty and there is already a massive concert/park thing there that is lightly used.

WHy would a couple medium sized residen... (there are already residential buildings, on the piers, their now).. change this?

~$770 million over 25 years about half of that state/federal and a quarter bonding for future revenue. The ROI is a larger tax base and recreation for those East of Center City. I do think that it's important to have housing/businesses East of 95 that continues the grid and brings people to the Waterfront. And I generally think densifying the core is a good idea.

**GoBirds** · 06-15-2011, 03:03 PM

Anyone know what the deal is with the capped portion that is east of society hill towers and the Korean war memorial? Seems like the perfect spot for a small development of townhouses or even something like Liberties Walk. It's just a big flat open walkway with two statues and a few stone chess tables, totally unused

**FatPants** · 06-29-2011, 03:57 PM

It is normally cost-prohibitive to construct buildings on structure.

The master plan envisions a completion of the "cap" over I95 between Walnut and Chestnut, and the cap is then extended over Columbus Blvd. and slopes down to the water. The purpose is to make the new "Penn's Landing" accessible on foot. The light rail would stay on Columbus Blvd. and pass under the capped section. The existing Penn's Landing parking would be relocated in the area below the cap to the east of Columbus Blvd.

**desolate** · 06-30-2011, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by FatPants

It is normally cost-prohibitive to construct buildings on structure.

The master plan envisions a completion of the "cap" over I95 between Walnut and Chestnut, and the cap is then extended over Columbus Blvd. and slopes down to the water. The purpose is to make the new "Penn's Landing" accessible on foot. The light rail would stay on Columbus Blvd. and pass under the capped section. The existing Penn's Landing parking would be relocated in the area below the cap to the east of Columbus Blvd.

ANd how much of the cost of all of this could be better utilized anywhere else.